Another Marston's problem

[2001tme]

Hi there,

Right long story short I guess,

Back in 2004 I was done for no insurance driving my car, now at the time my girlfriend and I were going through a rocky patch and we had a series of split ups over a period of around 18 months - 2 years. At one point I ended up moving back north to live with my sister.

Fast forward some years and everything between me and said girlfriend had been fine for some years and we now lived in a different area to that were we started our relationship. I have been declared bankrupt in Feb this year and all my assets etc seized by the Insolvency company. The house that we live in is rented (so luckily we didn't become homeless) and the tenancy agreement is and always has been in my partners name. She also has three children that live with us at this address from a previous relationship.

Now on the 2nd of September I received a letter from Merseyside Magistrates Court that I had an a Reminder of unpaid fine letter, to which I tried to use the contact number which was on the letter to call them and find out what the fine was for. I found that this was just an automated system wanting me to use card details to pay the fine. Obviously I wasn't going to just pay a fine that I didn't remember ever having.

On the 11th September I then received a Further Steps Notice from the same court. Again I tried to contact them with the annoying automated telephone message going on. I began at this point to use google to see if I could find any other contact numbers for the court. I then called again on the number I found, before being told that the section which deals with fines was closed early that day but to try again tomorrow.

Now I have tried calling them on separate occasions and have always failed to get through, even when calling with in the open hours stated I have had the automated message telling me that they are now closed and the open hours are blah blah. Despite at times calling within those hours.

On the 11th October I received a letter from Marston stating the offence and asking for full payment. Now I will say now that I also had another fine that was being dealt with via the local magistrates court and a means test was being followed by myself to allow me more time to pay and lower payments due to having a very low income. So I continued to try to contact the court in Merseyside because I thought they would deal with me better than a Bailiff office (Silly me).

Despite this I still never seemed to get hold of anybody that could help me, and was becoming more frustrated every day. On the 29 October, I arrived home to discover that Marstons had been to our house and pushed a Final Notice letter through the door and stated that they would be back one night this week (This hasn't yet happened).

The name on the letter was a Mr Jones, along with a contact number. So I called him and explained that I was a bankrupt, that I had no assets and that I couldn't afford to pay the fine in full but wanted to pay the fine however needed to pay at a lower rate each month due to a low income. Also I told him that the house was rented by my partner etc. He basically told me that he couldn't help and that the only people who could call him off was the court.

So again I tried to contact the courts, this time after some more ringing around I managed to speak with a lady who was more interested in my case, but said she couldn't make any decisions for me. But gave me an email address to use and tell them the same story and they could help.

Now the fun begins, basically the court keep telling me I have to deal with Marston's and Marston's keep saying the court. I have emailed them both telling them that neither of them seem willing to help and that this is stupid. I also suggested that they are wasting their own time chasing a bankrupt and waste tax payers money etc, but still I am sat here wondering every day when they will turn back up again.

I really do want to pay the fine, I am not trying to get away with it but I just can't afford to pay the whole amount in one go.

They haven't been in the property and one car belongs and is registered to my partner and the other car belongs to my employer and is obviously registered to them, so I hope they don't try to clamp these vehicles. The last thing I want to happen is that I loose my job because they clamp the company car and I don't get to work that day and have to explain to my employer what is going on.

What can I do? Can anybody help me get this sorted?

Thanks,

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Martson's problem

Hi and welcome to Legal Beagles.

It appears that you have attempted to pay the fine on the occasion you received the reminder and the Further Steps Notice, but were prevented from doing so due to the inefficiencies of Merseyside Magistrates Court at Runcorn. Their issue of a Distress Warrant, under those circumstances, is open to question and challenge.

As the court team appear to have made themselves difficult to contact, I would suggest you contact the HMCTS Area Enforcement Team, who are at a higher level within HMCTS. Their email address is CH-CPOSupervisor@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk. When you email them, put "For the attn. of Senior Enforcement Manager or Service Delivery Manager" in the subject box. These are the two most senior members of the team. Explain what has happened. If you have two fines outstanding and are awaiting a Means Hearing, you should request that this fine be consolidated with it and the instalments and timespan adjusted accordingly. This is called a Consolidation Order. However, you do need to get the matter of the involvement of Marstons and inefficiencies of Merseyside Magistrates Courts resolved.

As for your employer's vehicle, Marstons cannot touch this. If you have proof of this, let Marstons know. They also cannot touch your partner's car. Again, they will need to know about this. Magistrates Court Distress Warrants do not permit bailiffs to seize goods or vehicles not belonging to a fine defaulter or vehicles that a fine defaulter uses in connection with their business, employment or vocation. So your employer's vehicle is third-party and cannot be seized. But be aware that Marstons are known for ignoring this.

[2001tme]

Re: Another Martson's problem

Hi bluebottle,

Thank you for the welcome and also the feedback.

The second fine I had has been dealt with already via Herefordshire magistrates court and I must say although it was a scarey moment, the magistrates were very understanding and allowed me to make a lower offer of payment and I have begun making those payments. I have told Merseyside magistrates about my dealings with Hereford magistrates and Marton's already hoping that they would see that I am somebody who does indeed try to resolve these matters. But that has made no difference what so every so far.

I will try the email address that you have provided and ask again, however the response from the court is that I agreed to make payments back in 2004 but failed to pay anything, which was probably due to the back and forth action from the North to the South as I suggested earlier. So life events took over and I never made any payments, however it is nearly 10 years later and my situation is different but they will not go any further than tell me to discuss with Marton's.

Also forgot to ask, Marston's have stated that they need to gain entry to the property before making any agreements and that also it is upto my Partner to prove that the property inside belongs to her and not me. This can't be true surely? Over the years she has bought items she hasn't kept the receipts for the stuff she owns as I am sure most people don't especially once any warranty may have ran out if the item was electrical for example.

Thanks,

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Martson's problem

Hi bluebottle,

Thank you for the welcome and also the feedback.

The second fine I had has been dealt with already via Herefordshire magistrates court and I must say although it was a scarey moment, the magistrates were very understanding and allowed me to make a lower offer of payment and I have begun making those payments. I have told Merseyside magistrates about my dealings with Hereford magistrates and Marton's already hoping that they would see that I am somebody who does indeed try to resolve these matters. But that has made no difference what so every so far.

I will try the email address that you have provided and ask again, however the response from the court is that I agreed to make payments back in 2004 but failed to pay anything, which was probably due to the back and forth action from the North to the South as I suggested earlier. So life events took over and I never made any payments, however it is nearly 10 years later and my situation is different but they will not go any further than tell me to discuss with Marton's.

Thanks,

I would certainly explain the situation to the HMCTS Cheshire & Merseyside Area Enforcement Team. On the whole, these teams are very helpful, in my experience. Make sure you quote the relevant court reference for the fine you are having problems with at the moment. It would not hurt if you quoted the court reference from Hereford Magistrates, also, but explain that it is a separate matter.

Where you have a number of fines outstanding, you can ask for the fines to be consolidated and payments adjusted accordingly, along with the time allowed in which to pay. As previously advised, you will need to ask the court for a Consolidation Order in order to do this, along with a Means Hearing. There is a Judicial Review that confirmed this - R -v- South Western Magistrates (on the application of Purnell) - so be prepared to remind them of this. Hopefully, you should not need to do this.

If you have yet to be discharged from bankruptcy, it might be a good idea to make the Area Enforcement Team aware of this, as it is relevant.

[ostell]

Re: Another Martson's problem

Also forgot to ask, Marston's have stated that they need to gain entry to the property before making any agreements and that also it is upto my Partner to prove that the property inside belongs to her and not me. This can't be true surely? Over the years she has bought items she hasn't kept the receipts for the stuff she owns as I am sure most people don't especially once any warranty may have ran out if the item was electrical for example.

No they don't need to come into the property. Letting them in would be a bad idea they would then start to levy on goods.

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Martson's problem

No they don't need to come into the property. Letting them in would be a bad idea they would then start to levy on goods.

Thanks for flagging that up, Ostell. I missed that bit.

Bring the HMCTS Area Enforcement Team's attention to the stroke Marstons tried to pull. What Ostell says is correct. They don't need to obtain a levy in order to set up a payment plan.

[2001tme]

Re: Another Marston's problem

Ok thanks for the replies, that is correct I have not yet been discharged from Bankruptcy. That will be next year at some point.

What is this bit about - There is a Judicial Review that confirmed this - R -v- South Western Magistrates (on the application of Purnell) - so be prepared to remind them of this. Hopefully, you should not need to do this.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Another Martson's problem

I have told Merseyside magistrates about my dealings with Hereford magistrates and Marston's already hoping that they would see that I am somebody who does indeed try to resolve these matters. But that has made no difference what so every so far.

That may be due to debt dodging being a commonplace pastime on Merseyside. :grin:

Marston's have stated that they need to gain entry to the property before making any agreements

That is merely one of their more common untruths.

and that also it is up to my Partner to prove that the property inside belongs to her and not me.

That is absurdly easy to do.

Use the Statutory Declaration B from the "Useful Letters" page - link - get it sworn before a Commissioner for Oaths and get several certificated copies. Send one to Marstons and keep another for the bailiff - if possible, video him when you hand it to him.

[2001tme]

Re: Another Marston's problem

This is the latest response I have had from Martson's, as of today I haven't heard anything from the Court Service:

Strictly confidential

26 November 2013

Ref: 2XXXXXX

Dear Mr X

Thank you for your recent correspondence. In cases where debtors are unable to pay in full we are required to send an Enforcement Agent to verify their circumstances and the information provided, on behalf of our instructing client.

Please note that the warrant/order(s) issued against you has been assigned to one of our Enforcement Agents. As such your correspondence had been passed to the Agent for their information/action.

We would suggest that you make contact with the Agent as a matter of urgency. Please see details below:

Name: Mr Jones
Tel: 07983 341 515

Yours sincerely



Customer Care Team
Marston Group Ltd



What do you think I should do now? I was thinking about responding telling them that I know this to be untrue and also that I have contacted the email posted above and will forward on this email to them. Is this a good idea do you think?

Thanks

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Marston's problem

If the HMCTS Cheshire and Merseyside Area Enforcement Team have not responded, contact the HMCTS Regional Enforcement Team, who are based at Gildersome, in West Yorkshire, and cover the North of England. Ask for the current email address for the Cheshire and Merseyside team. If it is the same as that above, explain to the Regional Team that you are trying to contact the Cheshire and Merseyside Team, who do not appear to be responding. It might also be an idea to explain the situation to them.

The telephone number you need is 0113 307 6638 and their email address is NorthSupportUnit@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk. Please note that the Regional Team is at a higher level than the Area Teams, but they are just as helpful. Also, bear in mind that you are trying to deal with an Area Team that is apparently not engaging with fine defaulters.

As for the email from Marstons, I would let them know that you are in contact with HMCTS Enforcement due to certain legal matters that HMCTS does not appear to be aware of, that is, your bankruptcy and matters relating to Marstons involvement in the matter. I would suggest you leave Marstons in suspense.

[2001tme]

Re: Another Marston's problem

I'll give the court a couple of days before I try that route because when I have emailed the normal team they have responded by letter in the post, which has been a day or two after the email was sent to them. Although they have been of little help as I stated above, so hopefully the Area Team will respond in the same manner and hopefully be willing to help.

So as for Marston's you say to tell them I am in contact with HMCTS Enforcement discussing other matters and also Martson's involvement, is that correct?

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Marston's problem

I would suggest an email along the lines of -

Dear Sirs,

HMCTS Reference: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I am in receipt of your email dated [date] and note what you say.

As your bailiff, Mr Jones, is well aware, I am an undischarged bankrupt, having been declared bankrupt in February of this year. However, there are also matters relating to the manner in which the Distress Warrant came to be issued which are, as yet, unresolved and I can confirm that I am currently in contact with H.M. Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) as regards these matters.

Would you, therefore, please ensure your bailiff, Mr Jones, is made aware of this soonest. Should, however, Mr Jones subsequently contact me and deny any knowledge of the foregoing, then I shall take a very serious view of this and pursue a formal complaint with HMCTS without further notice.

Yours faithfully,

.................

From your initial post, it is pretty clear that the court in question has made itself difficult to contact. You are not the first person who has come onto LB, seeking help, who has experienced problems with courts that do this. There is a question as to the issue of the FSN and DW, given the fact you were unable to make contact due to the way in which a court of law is being run or not run. This needs sorting out asap. The warning in the draft email above is to put Marstons on warning as bailiffs tend to deny their company has told them anything. Have a copy of the email ready to hand to Mr Jones should he put in an appearance and claim no-one has said anything to him.

[2001tme]

Re: Another Marston's problem

Thank you, I have sent that.

I intend to follow up the Statutory Declaration B this week with my Partner, so that should also help hold them at bay. Do you think it would be worth talking with Hereford Magistrates Court to see if they would be willing to try and help pull this fine under their control and consolidate it with the one that they have already helped me sort out?

Thanks

[bluebottle]

Re: Another Marston's problem

Thank you, I have sent that.

I intend to follow up the Statutory Declaration B this week with my Partner, so that should also help hold them at bay. Do you think it would be worth talking with Hereford Magistrates Court to see if they would be willing to try and help pull this fine under their control and consolidate it with the one that they have already helped me sort out?

Thanks

Which is the more aged (older) fine? Also, are you under the jurisdiction of the Personal Insolvency Section of the Office of the Official Receiver? If so, have you informed them of these fines?

[2001tme]

Re: Another Marston's problem

I think the Merseyside one is the oldest being honest. Yes I have informed them of the fines, and they did warn me that they wouldn't be written off and that I would have to deal with them should they contact me. Which I have done with Hereford court, but as you know Merseyside has been some what of a challenge so far.