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PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

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  • PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

    Please bear with me as this is a bit of a long and confusing story.....

    Last year I received a charge certificate through the post from Barnet council regarding an unpaid PCN for an alleged contravention on 17th March 2012. In response to this charge notice I sent an email to barnet council explaining that the alleged contravention did not occur because I paid for the parking via phone and attached a screenshot of the receipt to the email. I sent this email on 2nd July 2012 and assumed that the case had been dropped due to the fact that I did not receive any response.

    Recently, I received another PCN on 27th March 2013 , this is a PCN which I am not disputing however, I didn't have the money to pay within the first 14 days and fully accept that I have to pay a bigger fine.

    So when I received a letter through the post from a company called Newlyn enforcing a PCN from Barnet Council for an alleged contravention in March I paid the full £186.64 without hesitation on 13th August 2013. Since then I haven't received any post from Barnet Council or Newlyn relating to any PCNs.

    However, to my horror on saturday 14th September my car was clamped. I phoned the number that was left on my windscreen and spoke to a bailiff working for Newlyn, who told me that owe £473.08 (£172 penalty and/or court fee + £301.08 bailiff fee inc VAT) for a PCN from barnet council.

    Despite being unaware of any debts, I paid the bailiff £200 in cash, which I have a receipt for, to remove the clamp as I needed the car. I was told that I now have 14 days to pay the remaining balance of £273.08. Since then I have gone through all of my letters and spoken on the phone both to Newlyn and Barnet council and realised what has happened....

    When I received the letter from Newlyn asking for £186.64, I assumed that it was for the second PCN but on closer inspection it was actually for the first PCN. Therefore the second PCN hasn't been paid, which explains which the Newlyn bailiff clamped my car, because they are enforcing the second PCN.

    Taking into account that both of the PCNs were issued in the month of March and considering the fact that first PCN was issued over 17 months ago, and since I wrote to the council in July 2012 I haven't received ANY correspondence relating to that PCN, I think its fair to say that my mistake is understandable.

    If I had realised that this was for the first PCN I would have challenged it on the grounds that I wrote to the council about this PCN over a year ago and have not heard back from them since. In addition to this, I’ve gone through my mail and still haven't received ANY letters from Newlyn relating to the second PCN , despite them claiming that they sent a letter on 30th August 2013, fourteen days before they clamped my car.

    I fully accept the £172 penalty and/or court fees relating to second PCN as the alleged contravention did occur and I was unable to pay it at the time. However, from what i’ve been told by friend and seen online the added baliff fees seem to be a little excessive, especially considering that I haven’t had any correspondence from Newlyn relating to the second PCN.

    I sent an email to barnet council lat week hoping that they would come to a fair resolution, especially considering the fact that I have already given the bailiff £200, which I believe covers the debt of £172 which I owe and asked if the remaining baliff fees to be cancelled.
    To my surprise I received a reply from Newlyn this morning which I have attached in two parts with the PCN numbers blocked out.

    Although i'd like to claim my £186.64 back, my main priority is stopping the bailiffs as they are demanding the outstanding balance by saturday 28th of this monbth, i've been told to contact the traffic enforcement centre but the lady on the phone didn't quite understand my story and sent me a TE7 and TE9 form, should i fill these out?

    thanks in advance for taking your time to help me
    Attached Files
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

    Have you read this?

    http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...rking-Offences

    Hopefully you'll find it helpful. :beagle:

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

      Big question...when you sent proof to Barnet that you paid the first parking fee by phone why did you not send it by Recorded delivery?
      The Black rat (Rattus rattus) is a common (hence the accusation of being Pleb) long-tailed rodent of the genus Rattus (rats) in the subfamily Murinae (murine rodents). The species originated in tropical Asia and spread through the Near East in Roman times (another thing that we ought to thanks the Romans for, besides roads, aqueducts and public toilets) before reaching Europe by the 1st century and spreading with Europeans across the world.

      A mutation of the beast now comes black leather clad, riding a motorcycle that looks like a battenbergh cake on wheels.

      A skilled predator, totally ruthless with it's prey, but also known to be extremely generous in doling out tickes that can provide points for motorists who want to downsize from mechanically propelled vehicles to bycicles.



      It's a dirty job, but someone got to do it!

      My opinions are free to anyone who wishes to make them theirs, but please be advised that my opinions might change without warning once more true facts are ascertained

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

        I sent it via email and received a confirmation from them the very same day. They are not disputing having received it but are claiming that it was too late to for representations to be made. According to the letter from Newlyn barnet council have photographic evidence that a ticket was affixed to my car, however, that doesn't prove that the ticket was still there when i arrived back at my car. And regardless, i paid to park there via mobile so no ticket should have been issued in the first place. The mistake i've made is paying this PCN because i assumed it was the second PCN.

        What i don't understand is that the PCN was for an alleged contravention on 17/03/12, there was no ticket when i returned to my vehicle, i then received a letter through the post asking for £165, i emailed them in 3rd July 2012 (which the council has confirmed 'receipt of communication') and have heard nothing since. I then get a letter from Newlyn and paid £186.64 on 13th aug 13, a whole 17 months after the original alleged contravention and 13 months after my email to them.

        is it too late to claim this back?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

          Originally posted by Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge View Post
          Big question...when you sent proof to Barnet that you paid the first parking fee by phone why did you not send it by Recorded delivery?
          Sorry just realised i have 't answered your question properly, in all honesty i didn't realise thats what i had to do, i just responded via email as i thought it'd reach them sooner. Should i have sent it via recorded delivery? Would they have been more likely to respond?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

            Thanks for your response. I've just read the link you sent...

            i'm not disputing the second PCN and am happy to pay the £172 (£165 penalty +£7 court cee) however, because i haven't recieved any paper work from Newlyn regarding this PCN before they clamped my car i'd like to dispute the bailiff fees (£301.08).

            If i've understood the link you sent correctly, i should have been informed but have not been so i need to fill out a statutory declaration in form PE 3, but do not understand whether I need to fill out a 'witness statement', an 'out of time' or both forms.

            Also, here is a breakfown of the debt and fees...

            Council debt = £172
            First letter = £11.20
            Enforcement fee 1 = £175
            Levy fee = 64.70
            VAT = 50.18
            Total Balance. = £473.08
            Paid = £200
            Balance Outstanding= £273.08

            do you regard any of these as excessive? In which case should i send the first letter (1. FREE BREAKDOWN OF BAILIFFS’ COSTS)

            Thanks again for any help

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

              Originally posted by jring View Post
              Thanks for your response. I've just read the link you sent...

              i'm not disputing the second PCN and am happy to pay the £172 (£165 penalty +£7 court cee) however, because i haven't recieved any paper work from Newlyn regarding this PCN before they clamped my car i'd like to dispute the bailiff fees (£301.08).

              If i've understood the link you sent correctly, i should have been informed but have not been so i need to fill out a statutory declaration in form PE 3, but do not understand whether I need to fill out a 'witness statement', an 'out of time' or both forms.

              Also, here is a breakfown of the debt and fees...

              Council debt = £172
              First letter = £11.20
              Enforcement fee 1 = £175
              Levy fee = 64.70 should be £51.30!
              VAT = 50.18
              Total Balance. = £473.08
              Paid = £200
              Balance Outstanding= £273.08

              do you regard any of these as excessive? In which case should i send the first letter (1. FREE BREAKDOWN OF BAILIFFS’ COSTS)

              Thanks again for any help
              They overcharged you, see above.
              The Black rat (Rattus rattus) is a common (hence the accusation of being Pleb) long-tailed rodent of the genus Rattus (rats) in the subfamily Murinae (murine rodents). The species originated in tropical Asia and spread through the Near East in Roman times (another thing that we ought to thanks the Romans for, besides roads, aqueducts and public toilets) before reaching Europe by the 1st century and spreading with Europeans across the world.

              A mutation of the beast now comes black leather clad, riding a motorcycle that looks like a battenbergh cake on wheels.

              A skilled predator, totally ruthless with it's prey, but also known to be extremely generous in doling out tickes that can provide points for motorists who want to downsize from mechanically propelled vehicles to bycicles.



              It's a dirty job, but someone got to do it!

              My opinions are free to anyone who wishes to make them theirs, but please be advised that my opinions might change without warning once more true facts are ascertained

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

                Sir Vere,

                I know you were in the job, so I hesitate to question the charges. However, what is the £175 Enforcement Fee 1 for?

                I thought PCN fees were as below:

                Sending a letter = £11.20 (Can only be charged once)

                Sum up to £200 = 28% (Minimum fee of £28.00)

                Any sum over £200 = 5.5%

                This does not allow for an Enforcement Fee, hence me questionning what it is.
                :beagle:

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

                  Originally posted by Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge View Post
                  They overcharged you, see above.
                  Thank for your reply, just wondering what I have to do next, who do i address this with? Also, what is the £175 fee for? is there a way which I can postpone the date that they are expecting their payment whilst i deal with this matter?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

                    The issuing council are vicariously liable for the fees charged by their appointed enforcement agents. I would send Letter 4 from here:

                    http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...Useful-Letters

                    This is written for council tax, so it will need amending slightly. The relevant legislation is under 'Parking Offences'. If the Head of Revenues condones the fees, then we can act to try to get something done.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

                      Also have just come accross another site which states the following:

                      'The law that sets bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid parking fines is Schedule 1 (and others) of theEnforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) (Amendment) Regulations 2003, which provides for a £11.20 letter fee and a visit fee of 28% of the original PCN'

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

                        Originally posted by jring View Post
                        Also have just come accross another site which states the following:

                        'The law that sets bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid parking fines is Schedule 1 (and others) of theEnforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) (Amendment) Regulations 2003, which provides for a £11.20 letter fee and a visit fee of 28% of the original PCN'

                        The very same piece of legislation mentioned in my link in post 2, where the fees are also set down. If you didn't read it - have a read. It has pretty much everything you need. :beagle:

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

                          Originally posted by labman View Post
                          Sir Vere,

                          I know you were in the job, so I hesitate to question the charges. However, what is the £175 Enforcement Fee 1 for?

                          I thought PCN fees were as below:

                          Sending a letter = £11.20 (Can only be charged once)

                          Sum up to £200 = 28% (Minimum fee of £28.00)

                          Any sum over £200 = 5.5%

                          This does not allow for an Enforcement Fee, hence me questionning what it is.
                          :beagle:
                          The £175 + VAT is a one off fee that (depending on the Authority issuing the Warrant of Execution) is charged sometimes on the first visit, but always on the second, which is known as an ATR (Attendance To Remove), it's totally legal, although I would like it, by statute, to see it charged only on the second visit
                          The Black rat (Rattus rattus) is a common (hence the accusation of being Pleb) long-tailed rodent of the genus Rattus (rats) in the subfamily Murinae (murine rodents). The species originated in tropical Asia and spread through the Near East in Roman times (another thing that we ought to thanks the Romans for, besides roads, aqueducts and public toilets) before reaching Europe by the 1st century and spreading with Europeans across the world.

                          A mutation of the beast now comes black leather clad, riding a motorcycle that looks like a battenbergh cake on wheels.

                          A skilled predator, totally ruthless with it's prey, but also known to be extremely generous in doling out tickes that can provide points for motorists who want to downsize from mechanically propelled vehicles to bycicles.



                          It's a dirty job, but someone got to do it!

                          My opinions are free to anyone who wishes to make them theirs, but please be advised that my opinions might change without warning once more true facts are ascertained

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

                            Originally posted by Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge View Post
                            The £175 + VAT is a one off fee that (depending on the Authority issuing the Warrant of Execution) is charged sometimes on the first visit, but always on the second, which is known as an ATR (Attendance To Remove), it's totally legal, although I would like it, by statute, to see it charged only on the second visit
                            Ok, though I see no mention of it in the legislation. So.... Attendance To Remove suggests a levy (or there is nothing to remove). A levy took place, they have charged for being in Attendance to Remove as a result of that levy, so why did they not remove anything?

                            I'm trying to establish firstly whether it is lawful, and if so where this is stated; secondly even if it is lawful, whether it should be charged when they attend to remove with a valid levy in place, then don't actually remove anything.

                            I hope my confusion makes sense. :beagle:

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: PCN misunderstanding and excessive bailiff fees - urgent due 28th sep 2013

                              @ labman, I thought an ATR could only be charged on a subsequent visit after a valid levy had been made also

                              Comment

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