stupidly have signed a walking possession order

[bluebottle]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

I am assuming that they didn't as i left on maternity in April and they wrote the end of June to inform me that they were told my employer could no longer pay the Aoe and they had passed it to b&s i rang them when i received the letter and stated my situation and my expected return date to my job. If they had gone back to court over it surely they should have confirmed with my employer and surely my employer would not have deducted money from my pay as recently as dec when this all started happening with the bailiff in july? I am so confused i will ring the council tomorrow and try to speak to someone senior. If they have breached anything is it possible to recoup any money that B&S has taken towards their charges from the £750 i have paid them?

You need to find out what is going on first before we can begin to work out if you can reclaim charges from B & S. If the council have acted ultra vires (outside the law), the bailiff fees may be repayable. However, we need to know what has happened, first.

[gorilla3]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

thanks so to be clear i need to phone the council tomorrow speak to someone senior in revenues department? can you advise what information i should ask them regarding the aoe etc? sorry i am quite a nervous person on the phone and do not always get my point across too well if i have it strucured before i call hopefully i will get all info i need in one phone call and follow up letter.

[CleverClogs]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

You need to find out what is going on first before we can begin to work out if you can reclaim charges from B & S. If the council have acted ultra vires (outside the law), the bailiff fees may be repayable. However, we need to know what has happened, first.

If the fees are repayable, I suspect that it will be the council that has to repay them.

Meanwhile, if anyone from the council goes to the restaurant where the OP's husband works, he should pee in their soup.

[bluebottle]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

thanks so to be clear i need to phone the council tomorrow speak to someone senior in revenues department? can you advise what information i should ask them regarding the aoe etc? sorry i am quite a nervous person on the phone and do not always get my point across too well if i have it strucured before i call hopefully i will get all info i need in one phone call and follow up letter.

Certainly. Firstly, you need to know if the Attachment of Earnings Order(s) in respect of the CT arrears are still in force. If they are, you need to know why the council has instructed B & S. If the council has discharged the AOE(s) without informing you (It is a legal requirement under Regulation 41, Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (as amended) that a local authority informs a CT debtor under an AOE that the local authority has discharged the AOE. The word "discharged" in this instance means "cancelled".) If the senior manager cannot explain why B & S are involved, you are entitled to ask them to desist from inflicting Distress whilst an AOE is in force. If they say they can, the answer, very simply, is "No, you can't. It has to be one or the other. You cannot pursue two types of enforcement against the same person for the same matter simultaneously." You can say that you can find no provision under the Council tax (Administration & Enforcment) Regulations 1992 (as amended) that allows a local authority to pursue two forms of enforcement simultaneously.

If it is pretty clear the council is going to be unco-operative, you should speak to your local Law Centre or the Community Legal Service who can provide free or very low-cost legal advice/assistance. The last resort is what is known as a Regulation 46 complaint to the magistrates court that issued the LO or an ex parte (without notice) injunction against the council and B & S. However, I cannot stress strongly enough that these are measures of last resort. Do not use them as a first line of attack.

Finally, I am attaching a copy of the relevant legislation for you to refer to if necessary.

[labman]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

I think we need to slow a bit here and I'm confused, so goodness only knows what Gorilla3 must be feeling. Lets get the information from the council first, as per post 8.

This means phoning the council in the morning and asking:

1. How many Liability Orders they have against you?
2. The dates they were obtained?
3. The addresses they were for?
4. The period of time each covers?
5. How much each one was for?
6. How much is still outstanding?
7. The dates they were passed on for enforcement?

Make sure you get answers to all of these questions, and don't accept you have to speak to bailiffs, you don't. Tell them they are vicariously liable with their appointed enforcement agents, so have a duty to give you this information.

Secondly email, and follow up with a hard copy Letter 1 from the link below to Rossendales:

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...Useful-Letters

Remember, if the bailiff appears, do not let him or her in, speak either through the letterbox or from an upstairs window. Move your car a few streets away as well. Do not give in to any threats, and please don't be upset by them.

Everything else to do with the AoE etc.... can all be sorted out, don't worry. But first things first, and in this case, that's finding out exactly what we're dealing with.

I hope that removes some of the confusion for you.

[gorilla3]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

Hi so below is the e-mail i have received back from Bristow and sutor following Bluebottles advise. I have deleted my address details and also the bailiffs names. the top one that has now been paid up was for a previous address that up until april was being paid through an AOEO. I am currently still waiting for a reply from the head of revenues at my council and will chase them later today via phone. Do you know how long a liability order usually lasts? as the one for the top debt is from 2009? Also the latest visit from the bailiff states that he had charged a van fee of £180 and that my total debt currently stands at £2439.23 which is different to what the office are stating. Also should i call to arrange payment plan or continue to try get this back to the council which i would much rather do.

Date:	Total:		Fees:		Client:			Description:
	1,151.03		0.00		1,151.03			Opening Balance
28/09/09	58.00	CR	58.00	CR	0.00			Levy Fee: 29/09/09
28/09/09	12.00	CR	12.00	CR	0.00			W/Poss Up To: 29/09/09
12/11/09	70.00		70.00		0.00			Cash Received
26/11/09	82.49		0.00		82.49			Cash Received
06/01/10	270.00		0.00		270.00			Cash Received
29/01/10	180.00	CR	180.00	CR	0.00			Van/Abortive Removal Fees: 01/02/10
03/02/10	500.00		180.00		320.00			Cash Received
27/07/10	478.54		0.00		478.54			No Trace: 27/07/10
21/06/12	415.80	CR	0.00		415.80	CR		Reinstatement of Case
11/07/12	180.00	CR	180.00	CR	0.00			Van/Abortive Removal Fees: 11/07/12
11/07/12	12.00	CR	12.00	CR	0.00			W/Poss Up To: 11/07/12
12/07/12	16.00	CR	16.00	CR	0.00			Card Transaction Fee: 12/07/12
12/07/12	327.50		208.00		119.50			Credit/Debit Card Payment
10/09/12	1.76	CR	1.76	CR	0.00			Card Transaction Fee: 10/09/12
10/09/12	45.81		1.76		44.05			Credit/Debit Card Payment: 10/09/12
03/10/12	3.60	CR	3.60	CR	0.00			Card Transaction Fee: 03/10/12
03/10/12	93.60		3.60		90.00			Credit/Debit Card Payment: 03/10/12
05/11/12	3.20	CR	3.20	CR	0.00			Card Transaction Fee: 05/11/12
05/11/12	83.20		3.20		80.00			Credit/Debit Card Payment
05/11/12	1.00	CR	1.00	CR	0.00			Card Transaction Fee: 05/11/12
05/11/12	11.00		1.00		10.00			Credit/Debit Card Payment
05/12/12	3.60	CR	3.60	CR	0.00			Card Transaction Fee: 05/12/12
05/12/12	75.85		3.60		72.25			Credit/Debit Card Payment
	0.00		0.00		0.00			Current Balance

Date:	Total:		Fees:		Client:			Description:
	917.75		0.00		917.75			Opening Balance
10/07/12	24.50	CR	24.50	CR	0.00			A.T.L. Fee (First Visit): 10/07/12
11/07/12	12.00	CR	12.00	CR	0.00			W/Poss Up To: 11/07/12
11/07/12	52.00	CR	52.00	CR	0.00			Levy Fee: 11/07/12
12/07/12	88.50		88.50		0.00			Credit/Debit Card Payment
05/12/12	17.75		0.00		17.75			Credit/Debit Card Payment
14/02/13	130.00	CR	130.00	CR	0.00			Van/Abortive Removal Fees: 14/02/13
	1,030.00		130.00		900.00			Current Balance

Date:	Total:		Fees:		Client:			Description:
	1,318.23		0.00		1,318.23			Opening Balance
06/12/12	9.00		0.00		9.00			Paid Direct: 05/12/12
14/02/13	24.50	CR	24.50	CR	0.00			A.T.L. Fee (First Visit): 14/02/13
	1,333.73		24.50		1,309.23			Current Balance

I will now provide details of the visits that incurred a charge as requested:-

28.09.09 14.43hrs
29.01.10 12.49hrs
10.07.12 17.55hrs
11.07.12 15.10hrs
14.02.13 19.18hrs
The visits are made in accordance with our client’s instructions and the terms of the Liability Order. The charges are made in accordance with The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations (1992) as requested.

At present your balance is £2363.73 and I would urge you to contact our offices to discuss your proposal for repayment, otherwise the recovery process will automatically continue.

Yours sincerely

[ploddertom]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

I'll loook closer at this tonight but can tell you immediately they cannot charge all those Card Fees if they want to argue refer them to Day v Davies 1938 which indicates that they may only charge those fees allowed by Legislation - Card Fees are not listed within the Council Tax Regs.

As for the alleged levies - unless someone else does it - I will refer you to a Regulation 46 Complaint you can make against the Council as you are aggrieved about the levy and the goods seized which really should have resulted in a Nulla Bono declaration.

[CleverClogs]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

The visits are made in accordance with our client’s instructions and the terms of the Liability Order. The charges are made in accordance with The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations (1992) as requested.

Except that they do not comply with the regulations!

On Feb 14 2013, there was a charge for a first visit (!) and a "van fee", which double-charging contravenes the regulations.

There have been charges made for "card transaction fee", but no such "fee" is listed in the regulations.

The levy fee, the walking possession fee and the "van fee" or "abortive removal" fee from last year are all improper, as the putative levy itself was invalid; not only were the kitchen table and chairs exempt goods, the other items listed would hardly realise enough at sale to repay the bailiff's fees and the costs of the sale. As the levy was invalid, no fee should be payable, nor should any fees be payable for walking possession, nor should any fees be charged to remove goods listed on an invalid levy.

See this link for details of what the buggers may lawfully charge.

I'd like to know what goods were listed on each alleged levy.

[CleverClogs]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

As for the alleged levies - unless someone else does it - I will refer you to a Regulation 46 Complaint you can make against the Council as you are aggrieved about the levy and the goods seized which really should have resulted in a Nulla Bono declaration.

But if the ba:censored:rd bailiff had done that every time, how could he afford his villa in Spain?

[gorilla3]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

Hi Ploddertom i sent the council a mail in Jan stating i was not happy iwth the levy and felt it had been made for the bailiffs own finnancial gain- (obviously i did not have any legal jargon to put in the e-mail at the time) which they replyed saying my case had been handed to the bailiffs correctly and they would not be recalling it and i needed to talk to B&S. I have since sent this e-mail trail on to the head of revenues at the council last Thursday and am still waiting their response! What and who should i be sending a regulation 46 complaint to? do you have a letter or advise on what the letter should contain? thank you all so much for your advise i was actually thinking they were in the right and i would just have to bow down and and accept the treatment and costs from B&S.

[gorilla3]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

I'd like to know what goods were listed on each alleged levy.[/QUOTE]

The levy made in 2012 were for items

1x corner display unit
1x kitchen table and two chairs
1x bosch dishwasher
1x broken chest of drawers

the levy that was made at my previous property in 2009 i no longer have the copy of, is there a way that i could find out what they listed that long ago? thanks

[ploddertom]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

I couldn't give a flying pigs nose for what the Council say, they are responsible for all of this whether they like it or not. In short a Reg 46 Complaint is a complaint made by yourself to the Magistrates Court where essentially you complain you are aggrieved by the levy the Bailiff has made - in this case because the goods are of no value. The Council is named as Defendant - usually it's a case of light the blue touch paper and retire. By contacting your local Councillor(s0 you advise them of the course of action you intend to take - they will not like it as the local newspaper may report the proceedings.

I can't do much until I get home later tonight.

[CleverClogs]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

I couldn't give a flying pigs nose for what the Council say

Is that the nose of a flying pig (Sus aves) or of a domestic pig (Sus scrofa domesticus) which has been propelled into flight?

they are responsible for all of this whether they like it or not. In short a Reg 46 Complaint is a complaint made by yourself to the Magistrates Court where essentially you complain you are aggrieved by the levy the Bailiff has made - in this case because the goods are of no value. The Council is named as Defendant - usually it's a case of light the blue touch paper and retire. By contacting your local Councillor(s0 you advise them of the course of action you intend to take - they will not like it as the local newspaper may report the proceedings.

It may also be helpful to inform the Leader or Fuhrer of the Council and the Leader of the Opposition or, where appropriate, the Leader of the Resistance.

[gorilla3]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

ok council have answered my questions.
i currently have 2 live LO against me one for tax period 2011-2012 and one for 2012-2013
dates obtained= 2011-2012 obtained on 27/6/2011 2012-2013 obtained on 15/10/12
Period of time covered= i dont think she understood the question?
Amount still outstanding
2011-2012= £900 2012-2013= £1279.13

Dates passed for enforcement
11-12= 21/06/12
12-13= 29/11/12

As for the AOEO obtained against the 2012 bill they said they were advised by my employer of my maternity leave and decided that they would pass the debt on to the bailiffs and that they would not need to return to court to have the attachment of earnings cancelled nor advise my employer of this change and that i therefore need to advise my employer myself so they no longer take money from my wages!!

[gorilla3]

Re: stupidly have signed a walking possession order

sorry the AOEO was against the 2011-2012 bill