Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

[noidea82]

Hi all,
I'd really appreciate some help -
We missed a month's business rates in September 2012, by mistake, and got a letter on 20 November 2012 saying that the full amount was due by 14 December or the case would go to court.
We phoned the council the same day to sort out what had gone wrong/paid the outstanding month and thought (obviously mistakenly) that everything was then sorted, and then paid the December payment of £571.50 as usual.
However, on 7 January 2013 a bailiff entered our premises and said that the case had still gone to court in our absence and he was there to collect the outstanding business rates of £571.50, court fee/admin fee £105 and his fee £195.
Whilst we were trying to call the council to verify who he was and what was owed he kept saying that we had to pay now or he'd charge us more for taking too much time and we were lucky he'd not had to leave letters/come back.
We felt pressurised into paying it all at the time, but got him to split down the cost on the receipt- the £195 was shown as a 'van fee' , when we asked the bailiff company for a detailed breakdown it showed
18/12/2012- £676.60 debt
8/1/2013-£0.80 payment by debit card
7/1/2013 £150 attendance /van
7/1/2013- levy fee £45
The bailiff fees seem excessive for 1 visit, when we paid in full within one hour and he definitely didn't make a list of good/levy, - can someone tell me if they are allowed to charge this much?
If not, how much should it be, and if I can try and get at least part of the bailiff fees back- should I write to the bailiff company or to the council, and what should I say

[ploddertom]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Have a read of this first http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...67-Council-Tax I know it says Council Tax but NNDR is broadly similar. You need a proper breakdown of the fees use letter 1 from http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...Useful-Letters send initially by email followed by a copy in the post.

[wales01man]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

I am confused?
The payment of £571.50 was missed then paid?
I presume October and December were paid on time?
Bailiff turns up for debt of £676.60 was this one months payment and fees if so from which month as it appears sep/oct/nov and december have been paid?
Bailiffs says it went to court did the OP not get a summons or any paoerwork from council or court.
Any answers,now if i had paid my rates up to december why would i pay a bailiff a penny without proof of court case?

[noidea82]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Hi Wales01man
We paid the Oct and Nov rates, and all previous months apart from September which we overlooked (as per below)
On 20/11/12 we got a letter (summons) saying that we hadnt paid and the full o/s was due, or it would go to court on 14/12/2012 and a liability notice issued. We called the council helpine on 20/11 /12 (the same day) and were told we'd missed the sept payt and were then put through to the automated payt line. As we'd been told that Sept hadn't been paid we believed ( naively ) that we had been put through to the automated payt helpine to pay the o/s of £571.50, so this is the amount we paid, thinking that everything would then be up to date,and all would be ok.
We then paid Dec as usual £571.50, which left only January 2013 o/s.
The bailiff came to our shop on 7/1/13 and explained that as we hadn't paid the full amount ( including Jan 2013 £571.50 ) by 14/12/12 it had still gone to court and he was there to collect £871.50 ( january rates and court fee and his fee of £195). We felt pressured into paying and did so on 7/1/13 - the receipt showed his fee of £195 was a 'van fee'. He collected the full amount at his first visit within 1 hour , with no previous visits/letters, and he didn't make a list of goods.
Afterwards we looked into it and found on the internet that 1 visit = £24.50 so asked the bailiff company for a detailed breakdown of visits and reason for charges ( I'd checked online that the bailiff was certificated) - they came back with the split as shown previously - 7/1/13 attendance/van fee £150 and 7/1/13 levy fee £45.
Can bailiffs charge this much for one visit where the o/s rates and court fee were paid in full on the first visit, and he made no list of goods? - I was under the impression that they could only charge one fee and it should be in the region of £24.50

[ploddertom]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

The object of the visit by the Bailiff is to attend with a view to removing goods. However as he does not know what goods you have it is usual for him to make a levy on goods. If he can seize no goods then he is entitled to charge a 1st Visit Fee of £24-50.

In your case he is claiming to have made a levy on goods, has he left a Notice of Seizure (Form 7) - a legal requirement? If so what goods is he claiming to have levied on exactly as described on the Notice of Seizure? Also on the Notice should be a breakdown of the charges he has applied, may be on the reverse. He cannot charge an Attendance/Van Fee at the same time he charges the levy fee.

If they have not made a seizure of goods or left a valid NoS then it is in your own interests to make a complaint to the Council as ultimately they are responsible for the actions & charges of their contractor.

[noidea82]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Hi

Thanks for the info.
The bailiff did not leave a notice of seizure - the only paperwork he left ( after we had paid in full ) was -
1) a handwritten receipt for the money, and when we asked him to split down the reason for the total cost he just wrote on the back that he was charging a £195 van fee
2) a sealed envelope - this contained a form headed up 'bailiff removal' and it said that he 'attended today (7.1.13) with the intention of removing goods and chattels as are necessary to discharge the debt...., the ref on the bottom ( which may just be the bailiff company's ref was
B14C 01 /07), and there was nothing on the back of the form( which he had brought into the shop sealed in an envelope so he couldn't have listed any goods on it.

On 7/1/13 - the bailiff's only visit ( as confirmed in the subsequent letter from the bailiff company showing the breakdown of charges) - he entered the shop during business hours, just sat down and didn't touch any of his file at all, or write anything down ( other than when we had paid - he took out a pen to hand write a receipt). He definitely did not write down any list of goods, or hand over a notice of seizure, or even walk round to to see what he could take.

We have sent a complaint to the council by special delivery 2 weeks ago- but no response - will be sending off another letter tomorrow

[ploddertom]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Don't be surprised if the Council back the Bailiff - that is the usual scenario as mostly the Councils have no idea of what the bailiffs can or cannot do. This will not resolve itself overnight and you have to keep plugging away but keep us up to date and we'll do our best to point you in the right direction.

[noidea82]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Hi
We've had a response from the council, which they say they've processed as a stage 1 complaint.

In summary, it says that the amount charged is correct, and if we have any query relating to the amount charged in addition to the outstanding balance (ie )the bailiff fees (£195 for 1 visit) then we need to contact the bailiff company.

Their letter then finishes by saying if we're not happy with their response to our complaint then the next stage in their complaints procedure is for us to contact the CEO.

Well we have been copying in the CEO to our letters so far, and are going to go to go to the next stage of their complaints procedures to the CEO, but would appreciate help as regards the wording we should use.

They seem to have ignored what we said in our letters about the bailiffs acting as their contracted enforcement agents entirely, but as the council should be controlling how much their contractors charge, do you think we should ask for a copy of their service contract and/or mention their vicarious liability?

Any help would be much appreciated

[ploddertom]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Personally I wouldn't bother asking for their service contract or remind them of their duties - they should know this. I would turn your complaint into a Formal Complaint to the CEO - mark envelope & letter as such. I would also copy in your local Councillor(s). It may pay to remind them of some of the recent LGO Reports - Blaby Council, Focus Report on Bailiffs & I believe there was another last week about Huntingdonshire Council.

[mikerb]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Just a thought, did the form in the sealed envelope have the charges on it?
(front loading?)

[bluebottle]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

I would also report the bailiff company to Trading Standards and OFT Credit Fitness Team. If you post up the name of the bailiff company involved, I will post up their OFT Licence Number and a document that will take you through the process of making a complaint to OFT Credit Fitness Team.

[noidea82]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Hi Plodderton,Mikerb and Bluebottle

Thanks for your replies. We will write to the CEO.

Mikerb - the envelope didn't have any charges on it, or any details at all apart from the fact that he was there to collect the outstanding rates and it said that we should contact him on a mobile number to pay ( if presumably we hadnt been there when he came to collect)


Thanks

[bluebottle]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

It had to be Rossendales! I will post up the necessary files later today.

[labman]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Complaining to the CEO is the most important thing here now.

[noidea82]

Re: Business rates and excessive bailiff fees for 1 visit -help please

Thanks labman, that is our first course of action and we'll be contacting the CEO today, but thought we'd check all the different options

Hi Bluebottle, I've found the information that you were going to upload(licence number and PDFs ) by checking through a number of different threads, but thanks for your help so far.

Will post when we have a response