Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

[michael the mouse]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Update.

Reply from Rundles to my second letter. Notes in italics are mine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
Total Outstanding: £118.50
Due to Medway Council in relation to a Council Tax debt (despite Medway confirming nothing was due to them)

Further to your request for a breakdown of fees applied to the above debt, (I did not request a breakdown of fees, this has been the first mention of any fees from Rundles) we detail the fees below:

Aug 24, 2012 Debt 1,111.16 (this was paid in full directly to the council 22/10/12)
Sep 28, 2012 Visit fee 1 24.50 (never happened)
Oct 5, 2012 Visit fee 2 18.00 (never happened)
Oct 18, 2012 Levy fee 56.00 (no goods were ever levied as I have never seen a Rundles agent let alone allowed one into my home)
Oct 18, 2012 Attendance / Van 90.00 (again, I have never seen evidence that this was the case)

If you require further information please contact us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

First and second visits are fictional as far as I am aware, no letters or notices were left to say they had ever been. The date fro the Levy and Van fees would be the day I had the first hand-delivered letter as described in my first post. Debt was paid in full directly to the council a few days later. All previous communications have been threatening to seize goods for unpaid council tax, this is the first time they've made any reference to their fees and they are saying it is due to Medway Council and not themselves. Not sure how to proceed now, I have no intention of paying them anything, certainly not for fictitious visits and just turning up allegedly with a van without doing anything.

[ploddertom]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

A Bailiff when attending a property for collection of Council Tax must leave a Notice detailing his visit & the charge he made. Ask them to prove the visits were made as no letters or notifications were left, even better if you can swear you were at home.

When levying on goods a Bailiff must leave a Notice of Seizure (Form 7) that describes the items seized. Again he must also leave a list of charges he has applied. The Notice of Seizure is a legal requirement. Ask them to provide proof of any levy that took place as no NoS was left. Also he may not charge a Van/Attendance Fee at the same time as you would not have been given an opportunity to pay had the seizure been made.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Strictly speaking, the Breakdown of Fees by Rundles is highly-suspect. If they cannot substantiate visits and other fees, the demand is illegal. The threats they are now making in respect of those fees they cannot prove they are entitled to charge and those which are not in accordance with legislation are completely illegal and they are in very real danger of criminal prosecution if they continue to assert a right they potentially do not have in law. If the bailiff has conjured up these fees, I feel that he needs to be sent a very blunt letter that his bailiff certificate is at risk of cancellation if he continues to assert a claim for fees for work he has not yet proven he has carried out and, also, fees which are not in accordance with relevant legislation.

[michael the mouse]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Thank you both for your replies, your help has been invaluable.

Reading The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, I came across this bit (under "Distress"):

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

I shall inform Rundles of this as they appear to be unaware. In the conversation I had with the council to make payment, I asked clearly for the total amount due to clear the debt, and while they did say something about bailiff fees there was no indication what those charges may be, nor have Rundles set out any charges until now, almost 2 months after the council tax debt was paid.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Oh bailiff companies know what the law says. They rely on debtors not knowing it. Thanks to forums like LB, people are better-informed.

Sometime ago, a bailiff was bitching and belly-aching on national television about a drop in business because of "those bloody internet information forums".

There's a simple answer to that - If the civil enforcement industry stops telling lies and resorting to intimidation and violence to achieve their objectives, there would be no need for "bloody internet information forums".

Personally, I am of the opinion that the coalition government isn't going to be around for much longer and that we are in the final days of the current political party system of government. IMHO, the civil enforcement industry has been drinking in the Last Chance Saloon for too long and now time is going to be called when they least expect it. And it will take everyone by surprise when it does.

[michael the mouse]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Delayed update - over a month went by since my last communication with Rundles and I hadn't heard anything back from them, now they're back on my case again. I had a reply to my last letter asking for proof of these alleged visits that they say I owe them money for, and why they charge for a levy which did not take place and in fact should not have taken place since the debt was cleared with the council before any possessions were seized.
The reply was basically "there are notes in our system saying we made those visits" and they told me what colour my front door was. Now that's something anyone could have pulled from Google Street View, and do they seriously think that "because we say we did" consituties satisfactory proof? I did not receive any letters or notifications that any visits had taken place, or that fees were being added to the account as a result of said visits.
They are now threatening so make arrangements to remove goods again - am I right in thinking that they cannot seize goods to auction to pay for their own fees? If so, can someone point me at the relevant legislation that would back that up? I will be writing back to them imminently. Thanks in advance.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Right. As this has happened on at least two occasions, Rundles are now in breach of Section 2, Protection from Harassment Act 1997 (Pursuing A Course of Conduct Amounting to Harassment). Both the bailiff and Rundles can be proceeded against and it is up to them to prove they are acting within the law. That is how the Act is slanted. You should now send Rundles and the bailiff what is called a Notice to Cease and Desist. This is, basically, a "Stop It" letter. You have asked them for evidence of their phantom visits and they have produced no evidence or are unable to produce it. I agree with the comment about Google Street View. If Rundles then continue to harass you, you are then at liberty to apply to your local county court for an ex parte (without notice) injunction under Section 3, Protection from Harassment Act 1997, restraining Rundles and its bailiffs. This will cost £175 in court fees. You may be entitled to remission of this if on a limited income. On the day you apply for the injunction or within three working days of doing so, you must submit a claim to the court for any financial loss you have incurred as a result of the harassment and anxiety suffered. This claim will then be heard at a future date by a Circuit Judge who will make the injunction permanent. However, this is a measure of last resort. Do not use it as a first line of attack. Send the Cease and Desist Notice first and see what happens. If you need help with the C & D, please come back onto this thread.

[bizzybob]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Put them on strict proof, as per bluebottle and send the cease and desist.

[michael the mouse]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Thanks bluebottle. Is there a template C&D anywhere on these forums?

[Inca]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Good Grief........takes all this hoohah just to tell them to 'bog off'?? Terrible isn't it?

[michael the mouse]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

yes Inca. It would appear that reading comprehension is not their strong suit.

[Inca]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

yes Inca. It would appear that reading comprehension is not their strong suit.

Amongst all their other failings ! They are like annoying little 'ankle snappers',,can't quite boot them off.

[ploddertom]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

As the Bailiffs are being obstructive over this you are now in the position to dump all this in the lap of the Council. Regardless of anything they may say, they are 100% liable for the actions and charges of their Bailiffs. When doing this mark it as a Formal Complaint on the letter & envelope and address it to the CEO of the Council. A copy should be sent to the Bailiffs.

You should also contact your local Councillor(s) and ask them for help. If they are reluctant or refuse then go straight to the Lader of the Council and his opposite number.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

Thanks bluebottle. Is there a template C&D anywhere on these forums?

Before sending a Notice to Cease and Desist to Rundles, send a Formal Complaint to the LA, as per Ploddertom. Get written confirmation from the LA that you have discharged the debt. This would add weight to your case if you have to seek an injunction.

[michael the mouse]

Re: Bailiffs demanding fees after debt is paid

I had written confirmation from the Council back in October when I paid the debt - they did say the liability had been discharged, though the bailiff would still pursue his fees. My point in all this malarkey is that they are claiming for fees which they either cannot substantiate or in fact should have been charging for (e.g. levy fee when no goods were ever levied).
Writing the formal complaint to the CEO now so will update when I hear anything back.