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Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

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  • Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

    Hi there, hopefully somebody can give me some advice this evening.

    Right here goes, I setup a business as a Sole Trader and it had been going well for the first couple of years. Last year we moved into bigger premises which is leased. Now with the current recession we have been hit this year and work is down considerably from the previous years. Anyway as of the 1st September we changed legal status to be a Limited Company.

    Now before we had changed legal status I had fallen behind with my rates so Bristow & Sutor were passed my rates account from the local council and they called on me to take a payment. Now being a vehicle workshop it was easy for them to walk in and be seen by my employees, so obviously I wanted to resolve this quickly as I didn't want to alarm my staff anymore than they already had been.

    I agreed a payment plan, and he handed me a notice of seizure which he said wouldn't be acted upon unless I failed to pay.

    Now as the business continued to trade we were hit harder due to our customers lossing their jobs etc which meant they had to cancel work so ultimately I missed a payment. So one day they arrived again, but this time I was out. So they left a letter with an employee, I was then given the letter that afternoon on my return. So I called the chap and he basically told me I needed to pay £1000 cleared funds. At the time I didn't have it all, but managed to borrow some funds to then call him back and pay the funds on card plus the usual .50 pence fee for card payments. He told me he would send me the paperwork in the post.

    Anyway when I got the paperwork through the post I found that he had made an arrangement for me to pay circa £430 per week. I was shocked as I knew that as it stood with work loads that we wouldn't always be able to afford that sum. And also that my outstanding bill was circ £6000.

    So at this point I thought hang on I am paying rates for the Sole Trader account upto April 2013 but I will also pay rates as the Limited company from 1st September until April 2013. So I called the Bailiffs office and explained, the lady on the phone basically said you need to pay the £430 per week or else we will come back.

    So at that point I called the council, who asked me to email them the information. So I sent the lady at the council and email outlining that we were a Sole Trader but as of the 31st August 2012 that no longer existed and that as of 1st October the company was now a Limited company and asked that they update their records and setup the Limited Company back up with direct debit/standing order and could they also update Bristow and Sutor.

    I had emails back from the lady which ended up confirming that all had been updated along with Bristow and Sutor. I also had written confirmation from the Council of the new amounts for Sole Trader and new Limited Company.

    I then was visited today by another Bailiff, and I thought great I can now get my monthly payments reduced. They confirmed that I had received credits so that my bill was now circa £2500 in total. But they demanded that I pay it all today, to which I said that I simply cannot do it. And showed him the emails I had from the council.

    Anyway the end result is that he has given me 24 hours to find the money or he will be back to seize property from the business!

    What can I do to stop this, I thought that now the business is Limited and effectively the sole trader account passed on all property etc to the Limited Company that they wouldn't have any rights to take anything. All equipment is also secured against loans that I had to setup the business and I was told they can't take any of that, along with the fact they can't take tools of my trade that I need to make a living, but they say that isn't true and that they can take what they like.

    Again being a workshop with doors open for cars to come in and out it is difficult to stop them walking in.

    Any advice would be great,

    Thanks,
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

    Bristow & Sutor Civil Enforcement are a nasty lot as you have discovered. Could you advise the following -

    1. How many Liability Orders are in force?
    2. What dates were they granted?
    3. How much is each Liability Order for?
    4. How much has been paid off each?

    This should give an idea if B & S are sailing close to the wind or need a torque wrench inserting into a certain bodily orifice at the lowermost point of their alimentary canals.
    Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

      Yes they aren't very nice to try and deal with.

      I had two orders from my understanding of the conversation I had today because he mentioned two debts that had been creditted. Alas the paperwork is at work. I am not sure what you mean by Liability order though, is this from a court? If so it hasn't been to court the council have simply passed the debt to them but refuse to discuss with me any further. Again I am not sure what each order valve is but total is circa £2500.

      I had paid in total £1300 of the total bill, but then had the original outstanding balance of £6000 reduced to this new figure of £2500 approx.

      Sorry not much help as I didn't expect to be able to find any help so left the paperwork at work.

      Basically the council were charging me a full years rate bill and a small amount from the previous year, which has now been reduced because the I closed the Sole Trader company and changed to Limited Company on the 1st September this year.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

        A court will grant a local authority a Liability Order (LO) for Council Tax and NNDR arrears. A local authority cannot pass such a debt to a bailiff without an LO being in force. The bailiff would be acting outside the law if they tried to enforce without an LO having been granted.

        You say that the matter has not been to court. Could you find out from the local authority which court granted the LOs and on what date(s)? You should have received a summons from the local authority, summoning you before the Magistrates Court. You would then have received a written notice advising you that a LO or LOs had been granted. If you have not received any of these, B & S MAY be acting ultra vires (outside the law).

        You also need to know that B & S are subject to OFT Debt Collection Guidelines and from what you have said, it sounds like they have forgotten what the Guidelines say. It is not for them to tell you how much to pay. It sounds very much to me that they are trying to engineer a failure in order to justify seizing goods and garner more fees.

        I'm attaching a copy of the Guidelines for your information.
        Attached Files
        Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

          You may well be correct that they have issued me with a letter from the courts, unfortunately I have buried my head in the sand trying to hold everything together this year. The court would have been Hereford County Court I would think as the council is Hereford County Council. I am not very good with legal terms etc so could you explain in simple terms what if anything I can do, as they said if I don't pay tomorrow they will come back.

          Can I stop them from taking anything from the Limited Company? If so what do I need to do or say? Also how can I get them to allow me more time to pay and also with reasonable payments?

          Thanks,

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

            LOs are issued by Magistrates Courts, not County Courts. How much is outstanding? It sounds like B & S are trying to engineer a fail to pay, which puts them in breach of their OFT Licence. They are not permitted to make you pay more than you can afford if you are going to pay in instalments. This is a common abuse by certificated bailiffs and their employers. I am going to bump this thread for one of our bailiff experts to look in and give you appropriate advice.

            :bump:
            Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

              Ah right it again I may have had one and got it wrong about which court issued it. I know I can find it as it will be at work, but I am worried about being able to do something about this by tomorrow. He is going to call me at lunchtime for payment.

              I explained to him that I was hoping that after my reductions had been calculated that my monthly payments would go down, but he said because I hadn't paid anything I now needed to pay the full amount. I explained that I had called his office and explained I couldn't afford £434 a week and that the lady was telling me that I had to pay what was agreed to which I said I hadn't agreed anything as the guy hadn't actually been into see me only leaving a slip with his number on for me to call. And I called him and paid him the £1000 he demanded although I had to explain I would struggle to get that together but he insisted so I borrowed the money to pay him. He stated on the phone he would send me the receipt through the post and that was that. He did send me the receipt and that is when I saw he wanted £434 per week, which was now why I was on the phone to her. And guess what, she simply said well you to pay what he has writen down then.

              I then said the amount you are claiming I owe is incorrect anyway as your charging me for a full year as a Sole Trader when we were now a Limited Company, and she said you'll have to discuss that with the council. Which I did straight away and they have done the reductions etc and informed Bristow and Sutor as the guy told me today, but now his company want the full amount outstanding. He also said if he was here over 30 mins the tracker on his van would flag up on their system and I would incur more charges.

              He basically told me that he would say he hadn't seen me today, so that would allow me 24 hours to get the money together and he would call me back again tomorrow to make the payment. But failure to pay would result in them coming back again tomorrow.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

                I make no claims whatsoever to be an expert in the area of 'business rates' but in the absence of any other help, I will do my best.

                Firstly, remember bailiffs lie, all the time. They don't care about you or your business, they just want the money. If you have shown willing to pay, they are unlikely to remove goods, but will tell you anything to scare or deceive you into paying. Do not trust one word they say.

                This is the basic law governing NNDR and their collection:

                http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1.../contents/made

                If you missed payments, and bearing in mind the time restraints, try contacting your Local Council's Head of Revenues and explaining that you missed only one payment and ask if they will contact the bailiffs on your behalf to reinstate the payment agreement.

                Here is the main switchboard number: (01432) 260000

                Do not accept that they cannot agree payment arrangements as they can. Equally, the bailiffs have to follow certain procedures. You have been given a Notice of Seizure. Normally we would ask for you to detail word for word what is on there. If it says something like, 'Everything within Unit 12' the levy is invalid. Items need to be described in detail - if you know this not to be the case, mention this to council and refuse to allow bailiffs access to seize goods IF they come. Often they use scare threats.

                You do need to be proactive in contacting the council and sorting out another payment arrangement. I believe Hereford CC use a company called Capita, so make sure you are speaking to a council employee and NOT an employee of Capita.

                Beyond this, given time restraints, try to get to your local CAB tomorrow if you can.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

                  Thanks Labman, I will try the council again tomorrow as you say last time I called them they told me they couldn't deal with it any longer. But having been on here for a few hours I can see this is not actually the case. So I will use as much of the information I have learned this evening to persuade them to deal with me again.

                  However the Notice of Seizure lists items that are actually secured against the loans I have from business setup and I have a document that lists these items and serial numbers from the said loan company. So I take it they can not remove these anyway, which I have stated to them in the past and also stated about them not being able to take tools of my trade. But they said that they suggest I get legal information that is correct???

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

                    Do you have your paperwork accessible that proves the equipment is on finance - please note it must be HP or Lease & not through a personal loan. If so this will prove the equipment is not yours and therefore exempt from seizure. If you can make copies of it, do not allow the Bailiff to have the originals. You also need the answers to the questions posed in Post 2, these are important as the chances are they will differ with the monies being claimed by the Bailiff.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

                      With the equipment they have seized have they made a comprehensive list including but not limited to:
                      make
                      model
                      colour
                      serial no

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

                        Hi they haven't actually taken any property yet, I don't think it is quite as comprehensive a list as that. Basically it may have something such as welder or compressor.

                        The items are documented by the loan company, and basically from my understanding it is written out like a mortgage type of thing and states that the property belongs to the loan company until such time that I have finished pay the loan off. I do have it documented and available to be printed off as it is a pdf document.

                        I will be calling the council first thing and pointing out that they have an obligation to deal with me regarding payment arrangements and that I want them to call B & S to stop them from coming back again. I believe from my research on here that I am correct in doing this?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

                          Originally posted by 2001tme View Post
                          Hi they haven't actually taken any property yet, - they don't have to take anything at this stage they only need to list what they have said on your Notice of Seizure. I don't think it is quite as comprehensive a list as that. Basically it may have something such as welder or compressor.

                          The items are documented by the loan company, and basically from my understanding it is written out like a mortgage type of thing and states that the property belongs to the loan company until such time that I have finished pay the loan off. I do have it documented and available to be printed off as it is a pdf document. Better still you can email both Bailiffs & Council the docs email for B&S is enquiries@bristowsutor.co.uk

                          I will be calling the council first thing and pointing out that they have an obligation to deal with me regarding payment arrangements and that I want them to call B & S to stop them from coming back again. I believe from my research on here that I am correct in doing this?
                          If you ring the Council they will probably be unhelpful as their attitude is this is of your own doing. A better solution would be to involve your local Councillor(s) on the principle if they let this go ahead then the business may fold.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

                            Well good news, I spoke with Hereford Council this morning and had a nice long chat with the manager of the Business Rates section, he was going into meets all morning but promised he would investigate and get somebody to call me back.

                            Anyway I've just come off the phone from a nice lady at the council again, and they have agree smaller monthly payments starting the 10th November!

                            She also explained that I should write a letter to B & S and ask for a full break down of costs etc, which in turn they have to inform the council that they have received. They will then investigate and any money that I have over paid will be refunded to me.

                            So although I was a little worried that the council may run away from this, because of the information I gathered from this forum in the space of 6 hours yesterday evening, I was able to come across as somebody who knew a thing or two and they seemed very willing to help me out.

                            So big thanks to all on here,

                            Cheers,

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Sole Trader Business Rates but now a Limited Company - Bristow & Sutor

                              Nice to see a council take a sensible attitude if only all councils worked with the council taxpayer and shut out the bailiffs

                              Comment

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