Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

[Guest]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

If a bailiff company has genuinely won a costs order against a form 4 complainant, they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

Instead, they turned eerily silent when I approached them for some evidence of the said costs order.

I have never seen John Kruse (or anyone else at to that matter) claim that such an order has been made, so I am concerned why his name was dragged into this thread.

The first publishing of the costs orders rumour, is in a CAG article dated 2007. There is compelling evidence that aricle has been doctored. Google Dealing with Bailiffs, and select the first website it gives. Scroll down the page and you will see the evidence.

[bluebottle]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

I know the poster on CAG whom Bizzybob refers to and have spoken to said poster at length about Form 4 complaints. This is why I am of the considered opinion that alternative methods of addressing bailiff misconduct (Alternative Dispute Resolution or ADR) need to be considered. Reporting a CCA-licensed bailiff firm to the OFT's Credit Fitness Team to consider whether the bailiff company should be stripped of its licence, which can result in the bailiff's company's income being affected or the company being closed down is one avenue. The OFT are quite clear when they say they need a number of complaints about a licence holder to initiate enforcement action. However, in some cases, especially where complaints are of a serious nature, a small number of complaints can be sufficient to trigger enforcement.

It is becoming clearly evident that commercial bailiff companies are knowingly and deliberately misleading police forces and individual police officers about their powers and this can go some way to explaining the attitude of police forces towards incidents involving bailiff misconduct. My gut-feeling is that when police forces and individual police officers realise what is going on, there will be a backlash against the civil enforcement industry. Police officers do not like being put in a position that compromises their integrity or exposes them to legal action.

[labman]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

If a bailiff company has genuinely won a costs order against a form 4 complainant, they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

Instead, they turned eerily silent when I approached them for some evidence of the said costs order.

I have never seen John Kruse (or anyone else at to that matter) claim that such an order has been made, so I am concerned why his name was dragged into this thread.

See Post 28. If you have his book, "Bailiffs - The Law and Your Rights" (the simplest of his books) the quotation starts half way down page 144.

Also HC, if you search Bluebottle's posts, you'll find he, too, knows of cases where costs have been awarded.

[bluebottle]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

See Post 28. If you have his book, "Bailiffs - The Law and Your Rights" (the simplest of his books) the quotation starts half way down page 144.

Also HC, if you search Bluebottle's posts, you'll find he, too, knows of cases where costs have been awarded.

That is correct, Labman. Sheila Harding and I spoke at length about Form 4 and it is she who warned me about these costs orders. Sheila has a great deal of knowledge and experience of dealing with bailiffs and I believe she is on the Civil Enforcement Reform Working Group.

[bluebottle]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

It is becoming evident that Form 4 has been overused as a form of redress against bailiff misconduct. MoJ Form EX345 clearly warns about costs in Form 4 hearings. This thread that I started has come up with some very useful suggestions and offers of help in my efforts to compile a list of bailiff companies, including their OFT Category F Debt Collection Licences (where applicable), for the benefit of LB members - existing and new - where they come across or are exposed to the worst abuses and excesses of the civil enforcement industry. I came across the more violent elements, in the civil enforcement industry, when I was a serving police officer. I do know, from research, that bailiff companies tendering for enforcement contracts with government departments (CSA, HMCTS) and local authorities are expected to hold a Category F Licence as a condition of tender. The conversations I have had with staff at the OFT over the past seven days lead me to conclude that, unless a bailiff company's management is totally stupid and reckless, they are not going to put at risk lucrative government and local authority contracts because one or more of their employees are behaving like idiots if they know there is a risk of debtors reporting them to the OFT Credit Fitness Team and Trading Standards and their company's fitness to hold that licence being brought into question. As one OFT officer said to me, "We act once we have evidence that a problem is widespread." When I asked for a definition of "widespread", I was surprised to be told that it can mean just a few serious incidents, rather than a large number of incidents.

Bailiff misconduct has, in my considered judgement, become a major problem with bailiff companies going to the extent of misleading police forces as to their powers. That has to change. Equita is currently under investigation by Northampton Trading Standards for fees irregularities. If it results in the loss of their Category F Licence, that has the potential to inflict major damage on Equita, if not, close the company down. A Form 4 complaint can only address an individual bailiff's conduct. In most cases, such conduct is condoned by bailiff companies' management, who go into denial mode when challenged. Something has to be done to protect the vulnerable as well as the taxpayer, whose money is used to indemnify bailiff companies when they step outside the law whilst acting for government departments and local authorities.

[Guest]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

It is becoming evident that Form 4 has been overused as a form of redress against bailiff misconduct. MoJ Form EX345 clearly warns about costs in Form 4 hearings. .

indeed

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-the-claimant-!!!!

[labman]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

BB, I am away from home this weekend, but will try to remember to email you the list of bailiff companies tomorrow. If I forget, please pm me to jog my memory which is like a sieve.

It would be interesting to know for sure which companies hold a CCL as IMO anything which gives us ammunition to use against unlawful conduct is a good thing.

[bluebottle]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

BB, I am away from home this weekend, but will try to remember to email you the list of bailiff companies tomorrow. If I forget, please pm me to jog my memory which is like a sieve.

It would be interesting to know for sure which companies hold a CCL as IMO anything which gives us ammunition to use against unlawful conduct is a good thing.

I have a list of CIVEA members, but it is not a comprehensive list. I have found bailiff companies that do not appear on that list. Once I have a list of those whose CCL Numbers are available, I will put them on the draft list, then email the OFT a list of those whose numbers are not available for confirmation either way. Once the list is complete, it will be available for reference. I am wondering, however, if it would be worth incorporating the list into a sort of "Beat The Bailiff" kit, along with screenshots of sample emails to OFT Credit Fitness Team and MoJ Bailiff Department.

[bluebottle]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

indeed

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-the-claimant-!!!!

I've seen that, too, Davy, and thanks for providing the link. There is an electronic copy of EX345 somewhere on this thread.

[Guest]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

HI

Just received this back from the OFT, it pretty much repeats what has been said, but it is nice to have it in black and white especially the last paragraph.

		Tele No	(084) 5722 4499
Our ref	Epic/Enq/E/129771	Fax	(020) 7211 8877
Date	11 July 2012	Email	enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk

Dear

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (the Act)

Thank you for your email received on 5 July 2012 concerning your enquiries.

Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, if a business wishes to be involved in activities relating to consumer credit or hire, including debt collection and debt management, they must have a consumer credit licence. The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has duty to enforce the Act, along with local authority Trading Standards Services (TSS).

You have asked us if licences would only cover the activities that were connected with pre judgment consumer debt , and that complaints regarding the enforcement of warrants / liability orders would not be considered by the oft.

Consumer credit debt - we regard the collection of consumer credit debt as a licensable activity regardless of whether a judgment has been obtained.
Non-consumer credit debt – actions taken by licensees when collecting consumer and non-consumer credit debt may be taken into account by the OFT when considering fitness to hold a licence.

Thank you and I Hope you find this helpful.

Yours sincerely

Olushola Egbowon
Enquiries and Reporting Centre
Office of Fair Trading

[bluebottle]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

That bears out what I was saying as well, Davy, about bailiff companies who collect consumer and public debt. Also, bear in mind that bailiff companies who tender for contracts with government departments and local authorities are normally expected to hold a Category F Licence as a condition of tender/contract. Equita holds a Category F Licence and so does Marstons. Both companies collect consumer debt as well as public debt.

Interesting to see what the OFT said. Thanks for that, Davy. I will be emailing a list of those bailiff companies I cannot find OFT Licence Numbers for, unless the public register is now behaving itself.

[Guest]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

Yes i certainly think given this , that you are right in that it is a worthwhile exercise.

Whilst i do not think that the fact that they had lost their credit licence will effect their bailiff activities, i am sure that in most cases the prospect, would have enough of an impact on their overall business to make them think again.

My main question was, can a bailiff can be reported to the oft for activities not related to consumer debt, it seems he can.

Having said that i do not think that it would be worth reporting bailiffs for anything that was expressly permitted under say the distress for rent rules but prohibited under OFT guidelines.

But in cases of gross misconduct, and lets face it we see a lot of those, i think it would be a worthwhile practice.

D

[bluebottle]

Re: Complaints About Bailiffs and Bailiff Companies

Yes i certainly think given this , that you are right in that it is a worthwhile exercise.

Whilst i do not think that the fact that they had lost their credit licence will effect their bailiff activities, i am sure that in most cases the prospect, would have enough of an impact on their overall business to make them think again.

My main question was, can a bailiff can be reported to the oft for activities not related to consumer debt, it seems he can.

Having said that i do not think that it would be worth reporting bailiffs for anything that was expressly permitted under say the distress for rent rules but prohibited under OFT guidelines.

But in cases of gross misconduct, and lets face it we see a lot of those, i think it would be a worthwhile practice.

D

This is why I am trying to put together a BEAT THE BAILIFF or, rather, BEAT UP THE BAILIFF kit for LBs to refer to and address bailiff misconduct from different angles. Don't forget, any bailiff company that holds a government or local authority contract, which includes most of the larger bailiff companies, could put such contracts at risk if they lose their Category F Licence. Also, I am hoping to include names of Permanent Secretaries, Ministers of State and Secretaries of State at relevant government departments, CEOs of relevant government agencies and applicable postal addresses/email addresses for LBs to write/email about incidents of bailiff misconduct and enlighten them to what is actually going on. My gut-feeling is that once MPs get wind of what is really going on and can go to the relevant Ministers/Secretaries of State/Permanent Secretaries with copies of the letters sent to them and give them a hard time, something will, finally, be done to address this long-running problem.

Thank you again, Davy, for confirming those facts with the OFT.