I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Hi Peter,

I love banter.....the fact is............ that is what it is..... a breach of the Act it is not deemed criminal unless a Court says it is......but the ICO is a toothless tiger..........my issue similar to this got so heavy that it invoolved my MP who was brilliant he called the then ICO commissioner to his office and told him to use the powers he had been given........nothing much happened.....all I got was another visit from an ICO enforcement officer .......who came straight out and told me that they did not have the money to prosecute all the cases that could have been prosecuted.....so nothing really happens they just get fined ...........hands smacked and tpld to go away be good boy....stinks........and I agree that along with the complaint is ........get the media involved

Ref above ......having information about other people is not a criminal offence ........it is a breach of the Act....passing on that information is another breach of the Act .....both become Criminal only when ruled so by the Court........but only then.........only if and when the iCO takes action via the Court would it be deemed criminal...if no action is taken it remains merely a breach........took me a lot of arguing with the ICO to get my head round this.........I still don't agree but have to accept it


Sparkie

Yes i agree the ICO are reluctant and slow to act, i personally think that there are other issues here, of a possible criminal nature.

But i have a terrible feeling that, this will result in a nasty letter being sent by the ICO and the bailiff just promising to tighten up their act.

You cannot advise someone else what to do, and i try not to, but i wish it were me that discovered these, i can assure you i would make their lives hell. With or without the ICO

Peter

[Sparkie1723]

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

The fact is that there are documents that contain peoples personal data, is anyone suggesting that the OP should just hold onto them?

I would hope not.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I love banter.....the fact is............ that is what it is..... a breach of the Act it is not deemed criminal unless a Court says it is......but the ICO is a toothless tiger..........my issue similar to this got so heavy that it invoolved my MP who was brilliant he called the then ICO commissioner to his office and told him to use the powers he had been given........nothing much happened.....all I got was another visit from an ICO enforcement officer .......who came straight out and told me that they did not have the money to prosecute all the cases that could have been prosecuted.....so nothing really happens they just get fined ...........hands smacked and tpld to go away be good boy....stinks........and I agree that along with the complaint is ........get the media involved

Ref above ......having information about other people is not a criminal offence ........it is a breach of the Act....passing on that information is another breach of the Act .....both become Criminal only when ruled so by the Court........but only then.........only if and when the iCO takes action via the Court would it be deemed criminal...if no action is taken it remains merely a breach........took me a lot of arguing with the ICO to get my head round this.........I still don't agree but have to accept it


Sparkie

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Are these the relevant offenses, subject to criminal sanction under the act?

Which would apply here?


Appendix 4 - Criminal offences under the Data Protection Act 1998

1. Unlawful obtaining, disclosing or procuring the disclosure of personal data.
2. Unlawful Selling of personal data that was previously unlawfully obtained.
3. Altering, defacing, blocking or destroying records containing personal data, where the intention is to prevent the disclosure of that information in response to a subject access request.
4. Processing personal data without a notification register entry.
5. Failure to notify the Information Commissioner of changes to the notification register entry.
6. Failure to comply with an Enforcement or Information Notice served by the Information Commissioner.
7. Knowingly or recklessly making a false statement in response to an Information Notice from the Information Commissioner.
8. Forcing another individual to make a subject access request.

Anyone found guilty of a criminal offence could face a fine of up to £5000 in the Magistrate's Court or an unlimited fine in the Crown Court.

Perhaps 1, would this be considered unlawful?


Peter

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

The fact is that there are documents that contain peoples personal data, is anyone suggesting that the OP should just hold onto them?

I would hope not.

Peter

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

In that scenario they would confiscate the gun ask you a lot of questions and as gun crime comes within the remit of the police they would investigate to see if it had been used in a criminal offence if not no more would be said finding a gun is not a criminal offence.......having possession of one without a licence is deemed as one ..........................the data issues are the remit of the ICO...not the police............its a fact of life....as I have said .............been there done that worn the T shirt.

The act committed by those bailiffs is a breach of the Seventh Principle of said Act a breach of security which can be turned into a criminal offnece if prosecuted via the Courts by the ICO..........unless one takes out a private prosecution through the Majestrates Court......which is a very expensive way to go ..its the ICOs' job and the police would point you in that direction..they will not do it for you.

Sparkie

This is not just a simple breach of the DPA though is it........ and as you say..........it is for the police to point you in that direction.......if it is.


Peter

[Sparkie1723]

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Sorry the "police only investigates when a court rules it criminal"......, how does any one get into court in the first place..........
If you found a gun and took it into the police station,.........they would just turn you away i suppose,........ unless you could show it has been involved in a shooting?

This information is the stuff dreams are made for some crook........ i thought the police were involved in crime prevention. Fortunately so do they.

The police will refer the mater to the relevant authority i am sure.....it is what they do.

Peter......

In that scenario they would confiscate the gun ask you a lot of questions and as gun crime comes within the remit of the police they would investigate to see if it had been used in a criminal offence if not no more would be said finding a gun is not a criminal offence.......having possession of one without a licence is deemed as one ..........................the data issues are the remit of the ICO...not the police............its a fact of life....as I have said .............been there done that worn the T shirt.

The act committed by those bailiffs is a breach of the Seventh Principle of said Act a breach of security which can be turned into a criminal offnece if prosecuted via the Courts by the ICO..........unless one takes out a private prosecution through the Majestrates Court......which is a very expensive way to go ..its the ICOs' job and the police would point you in that direction..they will not do it for you.

Sparkie

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

THe police will only investigate a crimal offence being committed or been committed...this issue is only deemed criminal when a Court rules it is.....the ICO has the power under section 55 of the DPA to take the matter to Court to have it deemed a criminal offence ........until that time it is not a criminal offence.............in exactly the same way as trading without a CCA licence under the CCA Act 1974. The Act says its an offence but it only becomes a criminal offence if & when the Courts rule it so
Believe me I know that as I have been through it all ........CCA licence trading and....... DPA enforcement action.

Sparkie

Sorry the "police only investigates when a court rules it criminal"......, how does any one get into court in the first place..........
If you found a gun and took it into the police station,.........they would just turn you away i suppose,........ unless you could show it has been involved in a shooting?

This information is the stuff dreams are made for some crook........ i thought the police were involved in crime prevention. Fortunately so do they.

The police will refer the mater to the relevant authority i am sure.....it is what they do.

Peter......

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Hi

I find the best approach is to give it to your local rag they usually fax any interesting stories to the regional and then hopefully the nationals pick it up some time later.

Of course as i say they may not be interested but i would definitely give it a shot.

Peter

[Sparkie1723]

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

THe police will only investigate a crimal offence being committed or been committed...this issue is only deemed criminal when a Court rules it is.....the ICO has the power under section 55 of the DPA to take the matter to Court to have it deemed a criminal offence ........until that time it is not a criminal offence.............in exactly the same way as trading without a CCA licence under the CCA Act 1974. The Act says its an offence but it only becomes a criminal offence if & when the Courts rule it so
Believe me I know that as I have been through it all ........CCA licence trading and....... DPA enforcement action.

Sparkie

[leclerc]

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Can I clarify exactly the type of details it has, ie name address phone number National Insurance number amount of debt etc etc?

I have a few press emails that I might ask if they are interested in a story of that nature

[Skally]

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Been trying ICO for about an hour now. They're a busy lot, aren't they?!

Keep you posted!

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Therein lies your problem. An ordinary member of the public with no knowledge of the ICO, fine, take it to a police station. However Skally is no longer that, as they now know about the ICO, I provided the name and a phone number, Bluebottle followed by concurring and providing a website URL. The ICO is the way to approach this abuse of the DPA.

Going to the press would potentially jeopardise the probity of any investigation, and that should not be risked, especially as any outcome is quite likely to end up being published in the press in due time anyway.

Skally, for what it's worth, I think you're doing the correct thing.

NO i thnk there is a perfectly straightforward method of dealing with this , go to the police and let them investigate.

The idea that reporting this to the press would somehow make the prosecution less effective is obviously incorrect, public pressure has always excellence action in my experience, and also stopped it just being filed away and sweped under the carpet.

It may be of course that the press arnt interested.
I spoke to a serving police officer this morning(About five minutes ago) he works at Tameside nick in Ashton under lyne) i will give anyone his name if they PM me.
He said that if something like this is discovered the public have a duty to report it to the police.

So there you go

Peter

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

Lets see what ICO say, i think they generally persue a civil remedy dont they, not many hairy policemen more a matter of a nasty letter.

I still feel that there is a danger of them saying OK leave it with us and then ringing them and saying very naughty , don't do it again. Yes they have given huge fines, but only in very exceptional circumstances, and lets face it , how many times have people on these forums had a positive result from making complaint to them or the OFT for that matter.

Now if there was a little media attention , it should i think be different, it always has been , i remind everyone again of the MP expenses issues and a thousand other incidents where the press have forced the authorities to take action.

I am still firmly of the opinion that the first stop should have been to the police station, apart from the DPA, there is the meens here for credit card fraud identity theft and many other crimes, the police should have been made aware.

I don't really understand the concept of "taking them by surprise" does anyone really think that the ICO work by dropping people from helicopters, it will be a letter or at the most a phone call, they will have plenty of time to prepare an excuse , of course.

Peter

[Skally]

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

well i have an idea..

Skally knows who the baillifs are, so we send a video camera and Skally, from a discrete and safe location, videos all the fun!!

Then we all can enjoy watching the baillifs having their doors kicked in, instead of threatening OAPs with kicking theirs in!

I'M IN!!!! It'll be better than any episode of "You've Been Framed" you've ever seen EVER!!! =0D x

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: I've found paperwork dumped by a bailiff!

well i have an idea..

Skally knows who the baillifs are, so we send a video camera and Skally, from a discrete and safe location, videos all the fun!!

Then we all can enjoy watching the baillifs having their doors kicked in, instead of threatening OAPs with kicking theirs in!