Bailiff (HCEO) visit

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

Peter,

HCEOs are required to act in accordance with the law, the same as everyone else. If they act in a way that is contrary to the law or ultra vires (outside the law), they have to answer for their actions to the courts and accept whatever penalty is meted out. Like I have said before, Certificated Bailiffs and HCEOs do not have a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. They break the law, they pay the price.

The police receive little, if any, formal training in what Certificated Bailiffs and HCEOs can and cannot do, hence their reluctance to act. If they are presented with an arrest warrant naming the Certificated Bailiff/HCEO, they don't have any choice as an arrest warrant is an order of the court to arrest the person named thereon and to bring that person before a court to answer to the charges listed on the warrant.

If there is pretty good evidence of criminal behaviour, I would be inclined to obtain an arrest warrant and hand it straight to the police.

Blue Bottle

Yes i see this but they are representatives of the court, all i am saying is.

Is there any evidence of the police EVER persuing/ arresting a HCEO for this kind of offence.

Have to say i have never heard of it.

Or would any complaint be handled internally through the court and the LGO.

Peter

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

Peter,

HCEOs are required to act in accordance with the law, the same as everyone else. If they act in a way that is contrary to the law or ultra vires (outside the law), they have to answer for their actions to the courts and accept whatever penalty is meted out. Like I have said before, Certificated Bailiffs and HCEOs do not have a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. They break the law, they pay the price.

The police receive little, if any, formal training in what Certificated Bailiffs and HCEOs can and cannot do, hence their reluctance to act. If they are presented with an arrest warrant naming the Certificated Bailiff/HCEO, they don't have any choice as an arrest warrant is an order of the court to arrest the person named thereon and to bring that person before a court to answer to the charges listed on the warrant.

If there is pretty good evidence of criminal behaviour, I would be inclined to obtain an arrest warrant and hand it straight to the police.

Re looking at your reply i must admit to being a bit confused(not dificult)

YOu say that "presented with an arrest warrent".
Can the op just apply for an arrest warrent to be issued? doesnt that have to be requested by the police, so arnt we back to square one.

What exactly is the offence? We all agree that they had a right (albeit tennuous) to be there if they beiived that goods from the business were on the premisses, i do not believe there is any stipulation tha the bailiff must attend the buisiness first in the regulation (unless i missed it), levying the incorrect goods is a mater for the LGO surely, they did not remove them so it is not theft i would have thought?

Dont get me wrong i would love to see these bas**rds banged up, but i think that the police would just either ignore the complaint or make a token response.

Would love to be proven wrong

Peter

[labman]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

Re looking at your reply i must admit to being a bit confused(not dificult)

YOu say that "presented with an arrest warrent".
Can the op just apply for an arrest warrent to be issued? doesnt that have to be requested by the police, so arnt we back to square one.

What exactly is the offence? We all agree that they had a right (albeit tennuous) to be there if they beiived that goods from the business were on the premisses, i do not believe there is any stipulation tha the bailiff must attend the buisiness first in the regulation (unless i missed it), levying the incorrect goods is a mater for the LGO surely, they did not remove them so it is not theft i would have thought?

Dont get me wrong i would love to see these bas**rds banged up, but i think that the police would just either ignore the complaint or make a token response.

Would love to be proven wrong

Peter

I don't remember the extent of it, but I'm sure I have read somewhere of protection for the HCEO if they 'mess up.' This would, if I'm right, only serve to make it even harder for them commit an offence.

Like you Peter, I have not heard of any cases of a bailiff being prosecuted for any offence. I have heard of the occasional one losing his job, often where the media have been involved. When proven they have acted unlawfully in a fairly significant manner, it is very rare for a certificated bailiff to be penalised other than a 'Youve been a naughty boy' type slap on the wrists.

The expectation that people exhaust internal complaints procedures compounds the problem, as you have the corrupted judging the corrupt. The LGO is the only productive body as far as I can tell.

It is hardly surprising police do not get involved given all the above. It is wrong, undoubtedly, and like you I would love to see them being arrested and prosecuted, but my belief is it is living in cloud cuckoo land, and until I see evidence to change that, it will remain my belief sadly.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

Something to ponder

For many years I bred and showed dogs, one of my breeds had an hereditory problem which at the time myself and a few others thought with some test matings and discarding some breeding stock the problem could be eradicated. At a general meeting however a supposed expert in the field said we should aim to control the problem. He then went on for many years doing his research and building his reputation, breeders are still trying to control it. As for me Iam still in favour of eradication whether or not that stops people spending years researching, advising and enhancing their reputation.

Are you in favour of compulsory sterilisation of bailiffs, HCEOs, etc for the good of the human genome? :tinysmile_aha_t:

[charitynjw]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

Are you in favour of compulsory sterilisation of bailiffs, HCEOs, etc for the good of the human genome? :tinysmile_aha_t:

Lol
I've heard rumours that Sainsbury's butchers are doing a BOGOF on this.
At those low prices, it's a snip!!

[CleverClogs]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

That is very interesting, as the police guide says along the lines of, "It is the duty of every constable to help a High Court Enforcement Officer in the execution of their duty."

I seem to recall reading that there was something in the Boy Scout Manual about assisting old ladies to cross the road (whether or not they wanted to do that) but, just as it obviously would be quite wrong for two Boy Scouts to frog-march a granny across a road, so a constable should not assist a HCEO in the commission of a crime.

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

If there is pretty good evidence of criminal behaviour, I would be inclined to obtain an arrest warrant and hand it straight to the police.

Hi BB

How would the OP go about obtaining one of these?

Peter

[Malookoo]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

I don't remember the extent of it, but I'm sure I have read somewhere of protection for the HCEO if they 'mess up.' This would, if I'm right, only serve to make it even harder for them commit an offence.

Like you Peter, I have not heard of any cases of a bailiff being prosecuted for any offence. I have heard of the occasional one losing his job, often where the media have been involved. When proven they have acted unlawfully in a fairly significant manner, it is very rare for a certificated bailiff to be penalised other than a 'Youve been a naughty boy' type slap on the wrists.

The expectation that people exhaust internal complaints procedures compounds the problem, as you have the corrupted judging the corrupt. The LGO is the only productive body as far as I can tell.

It is hardly surprising police do not get involved given all the above. It is wrong, undoubtedly, and like you I would love to see them being arrested and prosecuted, but my belief is it is living in cloud cuckoo land, and until I see evidence to change that, it will remain my belief sadly.

You are right that HCEO's can get protection if they cock up but they have to apply to the court for it.

On another forum I think you will find an example where a bailiff having been exposed admittedly by the media was sacked by his employer and they have reported him to the Police, again probably due to media influence.

Although I understand the difficulty so far of getting the Police to act and your doubts of it happening at all IMHO I dont think that should deter people from making it happen, and if and when it does happen a few times the benefits to everybody ( bailiffs/HCEO's being the exeption ) will be great.

As for any stipulation regarding of where to visit again quite right, but how can HCEO possibly have a reasonable beleif that assets of the Company ( the debtor ) are at an employees home and not at the Companys premises?

I can't remember the actual thing without unpacking some books but beleive its some thing to do with a reasonable person on a London bus

[charitynjw]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

I can't remember the actual thing without unpacking some books but beleive its some thing to do with a reasonable person on a London bus

Would this be Reginald Toff, 'The man on the Clapham omnibus', aka 'reasonable man'?

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

You are right that HCEO's can get protection if they cock up but they have to apply to the court for it.

On another forum I think you will find an example where a bailiff having been exposed admittedly by the media was sacked by his employer and they have reported him to the Police, again probably due to media influence.

Although I understand the difficulty so far of getting the Police to act and your doubts of it happening at all IMHO I dont think that should deter people from making it happen, and if and when it does happen a few times the benefits to everybody ( bailiffs/HCEO's being the exeption ) will be great.

As for any stipulation regarding of where to visit again quite right, but how can HCEO possibly have a reasonable beleif that assets of the Company ( the debtor ) are at an employees home and not at the Companys premises?

I can't remember the actual thing without unpacking some books but beleive its some thing to do with a reasonable person on a London bus

Yes by all means report them to the police, i know of a few occaisions where people have done this and the police have said they do not want to know, but a you say nothing to loose.

Realistically the best action for the OP would be the set asside and the other measures already mentioned.

Yes reasonable belief, knowing what lying b**rds they are i dont think they would have difficulty concocting a scenarion that would fulfill this requirement.

Sorry to sound cynical.

Peter

[labman]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

Purely for clarification, my cuckoo land comment was not intended to deter people from reporting the HCEOs to the police. It was intended to express my 'reasonably' held belief that it will get the OP nowhere. As BB himself says, police training is very limited.

Malookoo, I agree entirely people should keep on reporting, but would go one step further. If they get no action, they should then pursue formal complaints that nothing was done. This, IMHO, is the only way we will ever get things changed, once the police start getting proven incorrect and called to account for it.

There is a however a very realistic problem which anyone who has ever actually 'suffered' bailiffs, as I have when I had four LO's against me at one time with the bailiffs vigorously pursuing all four. It is exceedingly stressful for the debtor to face one lot of bailiffs for one debt, let alone any more than that. In this case, we have the OP hiding terrified upstairs.

Usually people are so relieved to have the bailiffs off their backs, the last thing they feel like doing is embarking on a formal complaint against the police for doing nothing when they reported the bailiff(s). This is, to me, a very understandable aspect of human nature.

In my case, revenge against the bailiffs came a full 3 - 4 years later when I then fought back against both the council and the bailiffs, and got more than a fair amount of compensation. I had not, however, involved the police, and don't know whether after that length of time I would have been able to pursue a grievance against them anyway.

[Malookoo]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

I absolutely agree and understand your feelings and indeed anybody elses, having recently had dealings with HCEO/bailiffs myself I to felt releif once they had been sorted.

Now I am just bloody furious and determined to use any and all avenues ( whilst keeping my business afloat ) to get some action taken and still hopefull that I can post a good result on here and elsewhere.

This I hope will help others and assist people such as yourself to help others.

As well as eradication I am also a great beleiver in theres more than one way to skin a cat

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

Hi BB

How would the OP go about obtaining one of these?

Peter

When I was in the police force, it was a case of the member of the public applying to the Warrant Office at their local Magistrates' Court. The MOP would then make arrangements to swear a deposition before either a stipendiary magistrate (now known as District Judges and Deputy District Judges) or at least two Justices of the Peace (JP). This involves standing in the witness box, taking the oath and making a written statement to the court, which is taken down at the dictation of the person making it by the Clerk of the Court. The MOP then makes an application for the arrest warrant to be issued.

However, with the advent of the Criminal Procedures Rules, this may have changed, in which case, I am going to make enquiries to check what the current procedure is. Where a complainant applies for an arrest warrant, this does tie the hands of the police somewhat as the warrant is an order from the court to arrest the person named thereon to be brought before the court to answer the charges listed on the warrant.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

When I was in the police force, it was a case of the member of the public applying to the Warrant Office at their local Magistrates' Court. The MOP would then make arrangements to swear a deposition before either a stipendiary magistrate (now known as District Judges and Deputy District Judges) or at least two Justices of the Peace (JP). This involves standing in the witness box, taking the oath and making a written statement to the court, which is taken down at the dictation of the person making it by the Clerk of the Court. The MOP then makes an application for the arrest warrant to be issued.

However, with the advent of the Criminal Procedures Rules, this may have changed, in which case, I am going to make enquiries to check what the current procedure is. Where a complainant applies for an arrest warrant, this does tie the hands of the police somewhat as the warrant is an order from the court to arrest the person named thereon to be brought before the court to answer the charges listed on the warrant.

Okay. Update on above; have just come off the phone to Plymouth Magistrates Court and it appears arrest warrants are now emailed straight through to the police, once issued. They've asked me to write in to the Clerk to the Justices in order to obtain an authoritative answer to the question. Once I get that answer, I will post it up on this thread. If it means it provides OPs with an effective line of attack and way of dealing with bailiff and HCEO misconduct that is either ultra vires (outside the law) or plain criminal, it will go some way to addressing this problem.

[Guest]

Re: Bailiff (HCEO) visit

When I was in the police force, it was a case of the member of the public applying to the Warrant Office at their local Magistrates' Court. The MOP would then make arrangements to swear a deposition before either a stipendiary magistrate (now known as District Judges and Deputy District Judges) or at least two Justices of the Peace (JP). This involves standing in the witness box, taking the oath and making a written statement to the court, which is taken down at the dictation of the person making it by the Clerk of the Court. The MOP then makes an application for the arrest warrant to be issued.

However, with the advent of the Criminal Procedures Rules, this may have changed, in which case, I am going to make enquiries to check what the current procedure is. Where a complainant applies for an arrest warrant, this does tie the hands of the police somewhat as the warrant is an order from the court to arrest the person named thereon to be brought before the court to answer the charges listed on the warrant.

Thank you, it does seem rather involved.

Even so it is an eye opener for me, could anyone get one of these and get someone arrested?

You would think that there would have to be some sort of investigation to culpibility first.

Peter