Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

[wahoo_thomas]

Hi all,

Long story cut short.I again fell behind with my council tax and was issued a liability order so had 2 debt owing to the council.Agreed a payment plan and missed a payment.Baillif made 1 visit and charged a total of 201.50 .He charged me 42.50 for both orders and 2 levy fees although no levy was made and he stated on the notice Unable to Gain Access.I contacted the council and now only have 200 pounds left due on the 1st October .(Which I will not be paying)The original debt on the liabilty orders has been paid so only the bailiff fees outstanding Below is an email sent to the head of revenues .I would like to know how I can take this further and what action I can take against both the council and the baillif .

Thankyou for any help I have used this site before and got great results from Rossenthiefs.

Dear COUNCIL IDIOT(name removed),

Reference no:-
Address removed

I am writing regarding the ILLEGAL charges that where placed on my account by your Bailiff Mr Roy Blyth with regard to council tax liabilty .I received 2 notices in the same envelope on the 13th July 2010 .This was the first contact I had with a bailiff and no other correspondence has been left at my address. As you will be no doubt aware the law states :-
SCHEDULE 5
CHARGES CONNECTED WITH DISTRESS
1,The sum of charges connected with the distress which may be aggregated under regulation 45(2)(b) shall be set out in the following table.

A, For making visits to the premises with view to levying distress.(Where no LEVY is made.)
(i) where the visit is the first or only such visit: 24.50
(ii)where the visit is the second such visit : 18.50

This was the first visit the bailiff has made to my property as no notices had been posted prior to this. There was no Levy made and the Baillif stated on his notice "UNABLE TO GAIN ACCESS " This means he can only charge 1 fee of 24.50 pounds as he delivered both notices at the same time.The law states he can not charge for 2 visits when only 1 was made even if he is acting on 2 separate Liability Orders.I have been charged a total of 201.50 pounds for this 1 visit.

I expect my account to be updated correctly and all ILLEGAL charges removed .Also now I have made you aware of your "MISTAKE" I also expect a full report on how this could happen and what action you are going to take to stop this illegal activity by your bailiffs.I believe you as a council are also responsible for this illegal activity and are equally culpable should this matter not be resolved without delay.I would like your response within 48 hours.I have already spoken to my solicitor and he has informed me that you will be well aware of the following ruling

Lord Lucas asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether a bailiff who repeatedly charges for work that has not been done commits a fraud within the meaning of Sections 1 to 5 of the Fraud Act 2006; and, if so, which sections of the Act apply; and whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not a criminal matter. [HL2743]

20 Apr 2007 : Column WA94

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006. Section 1 of the 2006 Act contains the new general offence of fraud. One means by which this offence can be committed is set out in Section 2, on fraud by false representation. This section applies where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss. It is also possible that, where a bailiff repeatedly charges for work that has not been done, this conduct will amount to fraudulent trading either under Section 9 of the 2006 Act or under the provisions on fraudulent trading in company legislation.

I must make you aware that as the bailiffs employers The local authority is vicariously liable and are equally culpable for any unlawful actions carried out by any of their agents.If this matter is not resolved within a reasonable time frame I will seek further legal advice with a view to legal proceedings against both Arun Council and the Bailiff employed by yourselves.I will also be filing a Form 4 complaint with Chichester Combined Court Centre where the Bailiff is certificated.


I expect you to treat this matter with the importance that attains to this and expect a speedy response.


Mr Wahoo_thomas

I have Carbon copied this email to my councillor and would like a response from her as this is an extremely important matter .In this day of poverty and debt, predominant on the REMOVED ward , the council themselves are acting illegally in adding charges to accounts that people are struggling to afford .Then I believe that the councillors should act accordingly to stop this .
CC.Cllr RMEOVED

[Caspar]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

That is fair enough, and an often used quotation. However, you need to be sending them an SAR to get a breakdown of any unlawful fees charged in order that you can dispute them / reclaim them.

Have a read of this: Bailiff Guide - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

And send this personalised to yourself: Bailiff - SAR - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

[ExBailiff31]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

Mr Wahoo Thomas,

I understand your frustration at the Bailiff charging you incorrect fees for this account as you are aware he should have only charged you £24.50 for this visit but you state he has charged you £201.50, can I ask how this has been broken down on the levy form that he posted through your door (with unable to gain access written on it)
in any case you are quite correct in your summing up of the Bailiff charges, have you paid any of them? if the answer is no (which I would suggest you don't) then I fail to see that you can "take the matter further" with the council as all the Bailiff has really done is charge incorrectly which you have not paid anyway this would result in little more than a telling off for his company.
The council themselves are not responsible for the Bailiff's actions and charges they have only instructed that company to act on their behalf what they could do is insist that this particular Bailiff not work in their county Borough or as the Bailiff company to review it's staff training.
You also state that the council have informed you that you have £200 left to pay on your account but that you won't be paying it? can I ask why as by refusing payment which you have now also publically done is not a strong basis for your complaint I would advise making an arrangement directly with the council to get this sum paid off, the Bailiff cannot claim his fees as he has not completed a levy correctly.

[calamity jane]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

Hi all,Long story cut short.I again fell behind with my council tax and was issued a liability order so had 2 debt owing to the council.Agreed a payment plan and missed a payment.Baillif made 1 visit and charged a total of 201.50 .He charged me 42.50 for both orders and 2 levy fees although no levy was made and he stated on the notice Unable to Gain Access.I contacted the council and now only have 200 pounds left due on the 1st October .(Which I will not be paying)The original debt on the liabilty orders has been paid so only the bailiff fees outstanding Below is an email sent to the head of revenues .I would like to know how I can take this further and what action I can take against both the council and the baillif .

Presumably,You are refusing to pay the £200 because you believe that the Council Tax is paid off and that the outstanding amount are the fees charged by the Bailiffs. However, you need to check again with the council because it is possible that the Bailiff fees have been deducted first before any payments were made to the council and that the outstanding amount is in fact Council Tax.


CJ

[wahoo_thomas]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

Ok an update ,

The charges where broken down as follows

Liability order 1
CT 1494.33
Summons 45.00
L Order Costs 45.00
Previous Bailif fees .42.50 ( his first visit there where no others as I was paying the council till 1 month before missed 1 payment).
Attendance/Levy Fee 68.67

Total 1695.50

LO 2
CT 801.00
Summons 45.00
LO cost 45.00
Previous bailiff fees 42.50
Attendance / levy fee 51.34

Total 984.84

The head of revenues has already contacted me .Very sheepish I may add. The first liabilty order is payed in full including Illegal fees.There is 185.00 outstanding on LO 2 .

I have received a full breakdown of account already without the need for an SAR emailed 5 mins ago and have a meeting with them at 4.10 pm today .

Seems that my councillor was not impressed and they are taking me serious .

I am not only looking for financial reimbursement but wish to take this further .In this day there is no way a council employed Bailiff should be able to operate without knowing the Law also the employees in the recovery department should know this too .Any ideas on pushing this further and what legal action I can take as they have taken money from me fraudulantely .

Sorry spelling not my strong point .
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Ok an update ,The charges where broken down as follows Liability order 1 CT 1494.33Summons 45.00L Order Costs 45.00Previous Bailif fees .42.50 ( his first visit there where no thers as I was paying the council till 1 month before missed 1 payment).Attendance/Levy Fee 68.67Total 1695.50LO 2 CT 801.00Summons 45.00LO cost 45.00Previous bailiff fees 42.50Attendance / levy fee 51.34Total 984.84The head of revenues has already contacted me .Very sheepish I may add. The first liabilty order is payed in full including Illegal fees.There is 185.00 outstanding on LO 2 .I have received a full breakdown of account already without the need for an SAR emailed 5 mins ago and have a meeting with them at 4.10 pm today .Seems that my councillor was not impressed and they are taking me serious .I am not only looking for financial reimbursement but wish to take this further .In this day there is no way a council employed Bailiff should be able to operate without knowing the Law also the employees in the recovery department should know this too .Any ideas on pushing this further and what legal action I can take as they have taken money from me fraudulantely

The bailiff is directly employed by Arun council

[SpringerSpaniel]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

See you MP and have it referred to the Ombudsman ?

[Caspar]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

The council themselves are not responsible for the Bailiff's actions and charges they have only instructed that company to act on their behalf what they could do is insist that this particular Bailiff not work in their county Borough or as the Bailiff company to review it's staff training.

Hi Ex Bailiff - as you know I have been a great supporter of you on this site. I looked up vicarious liability and found the following definition:

The tort doctrine that imposes responsibility upon one person for the failure of another, with whom the person has a special relationship to exercise such care as a reasonably prudent person would use under similar circumstances.


Surely this means that if the bailiffs fail to exercise their responsibilities correctly, liability is imposed on the council? I would have thought the OP would have a genuine reason for complaint against the council given their vicarious liability, unless I am misunderstanding something.

[WendyB]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

The council are vicariously liable for the actions of those employed by them.

Wahoo - who were you paying the instalments to? If it was the bailiffs they will already have deducted their fees before turning the remainder of the money over to the council. If you have paid the council direct you will still be liable for any legitimate bailiff fees. If there are overcharges of fees in the LO you have already paid, then these can be refunded by the bailiff company and offset against any council tax you still owe.

[Caspar]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

Wendy - OP states the original LO has been paid so only bailiffs fees outstanding. This means she must have paid to the council, hence my suggesting the SAR to identify charges made and see what is lawful and what is not.

I hope the idea of witholding the October payment of £200 is to offset any unlawful bailiff fees before finally clearing the bill. Perhaps the OP could clarify this?

[wahoo_thomas]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

Morning all ,

Just to clarify a few things for you was in az rush yesterday and maybe did not explain fully.

1, The bailiff is directly employed by Arun Council he is not an outsourced bailiff but employed and his certificate states his employer as Arun Council.

2, I have always paid the council direct and they have added the bailiff fees to my account.

3,The first Liabilty order including the ileegal charge has been paid in full.

4,The second has 185.00 pounds outstanding which I am refusing to pay .I have informed the council of this and they have put my account on hold.

I have already received a full statement via email from the council and it lists the bailiff fees on it so want to know how to progress this further I am sure they will refund me but my concern is how many people in the Arun area have paid these Illegal fees and I want to do all that is available in the LAW to bring this to light and try to ensure an end to this Illegal activity .


thank you and my name is Jim .

[ploddertom]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

To go further with this you will need to list the breakdown you have been sent, according to my maths and going from what you have said so far you have paid a total of £2314-83 - is this correct?

As far as the Council are concerned they should be beyond reproach in this. have they employed 2 x ex employees of another Bailiff Co or have they taken on their own & Certificated them. Whichever way it is they should now be investigating each & every case their 2 Bailiffs have been employed upon.

To make noises you should contact your local Councillor(s) ASAP and if they refuse or are reluctant to take this up on your behalf you go over their head to the Leader of the Council and his opposite number. This could go all the way to the LGO.

PT

[wahoo_thomas]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

From quick calcs I have worked out that I owe the council around 94 pounds now which I am going to pay online .I am awaiting there response after speaking with the head of Revenues who seems to have no understanding of Law and even offered to meet me half way with the costs.I presume they think i am trying to get out of paying but they are mistaken.

I am furious that the council itself does not have a clue regarding Council Tax Law .I will not pay any charges I believe are Illegal . I understand that the Bailiff did make 1 visit to my premises and although he was acting on 2 liability orders can only charge the prescribed 1 visit fee of 24.50 .He can not charge first visit fees for both orders if he only visited once and stuffed both notices in the same envelope.(can anyone confirm this as correct for me).

I have sent an email to my local councillor and am awaiting response from them .

Thanks again all

Jim

[ploddertom]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

In my view the best way to contact your local Councillor(s) is by phone as not all of them are computer literate when it comes to email. As they asked for Public Office it is my opinion that it is Ok to contact them 7 days a week up until 9pm. If they don't like then they should not have run for office in the first place.

It may well be worth you issuing some FOI requests to your Council:
1 - do they have a Bailiff Code of Practice, if so what is it
2 - do they have a Service Level Agrrememnt in place, if so what is it
3 - do they employ any external Bailiif Companies
4 - how manytimes in each of the last 6 financial years have they instructed their own Bailiff to recover:
a - Council Tax
b - NNDR
c - overpayment of Benefits
d - if applicable Parking Tickets
5 - with reference to 4 above how many complaints have been received about the Bailiff and how many of these were upheld
6 - if external Bailiff Companies have been used to carry out 4 above again how many Complaints have been made and how many upheld
7 - does the Council have procedures in place to check fees charged by their own & external Bailiffs are correct
8 - are the Recovery & Revenues Dept well versed in the Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 as Amended and form does this training take
9 - do the Council have procedures in place to check that those issued with Liability Orders do not come under the Vulnerable Category as defined by the National Standards for Enforcement Agents
10 - any others you can think of

PT

[Caspar]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

I'd try and get something in about how many accounts have been taken back from bailiffs to the council (a) following complaints (b) on request by a member of the public.

Also Do they have a policy of accepting payments from members of the public wanting to pay the council face to face (not via automated or online systems)? If not, why not?

[ploddertom]

Re: Arun Councils own Bailiff acting Illegally

I'd try and get something in about how many accounts have been taken back from bailiffs to the council (a) following complaints (b) on request by a member of the public.

Also Do they have a policy of accepting payments from members of the public wanting to pay the council face to face (not via automated or online systems)? If not, why not?

The more the merrier, they won't enjoy the questions and yes you can publish the answers.

PT