Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

[trlnurse]

Any advice on this would be really helpful, I'm on the verge of seeking legal advice, but thought I'd try here first.

Where to start!! I basically owed Croydon Council £2600 approx an received letters from Jacobs in April stating various amounts that were owed. I emailled them and they told me to contact the bailiff it had been assigned to who eventually visited my home in May and left a letter. I contacted him, made an inital payment and arranged to meet with him to discuss the outstanding amount, as they various amounts he was quoting did not match the information I had received.

He came back to my home in May and we discussed and agreed what was owed. He levied some of my goods (noooooooooo I hear you cry!!) I realise now I shouldn't have done that. We came to an arrangement to pay off the debt. He did not leave me with a notice of seizure so I therefore was not aware of what there charges were.

The arrangement ended in October, when I made the final payment and to my knowledge that was the end of it. I then received a visit 2 months later from a different bailiff stating I still owed over £900!!!!

(Im sorry this does go on a bit!!!) I contacted the head office and request a breakdown of all payments made and charges. This is when I discover out of the £2600 I have paid they have taken £770 in charges, which means I stll owe Croydon Council £770. My query is regarding these charges. Firstly they have charged me for visits that just didn't happen. The days they are stating they visited are the days I called the bailliff to pay him. They never attended with a van and they charge me 3 times for visiting 1 day, this is apparently becuase it is 3 liaibility orders, but how can they charge you for visiting 3 times in one day!!

I have written to them, but they have written back basically ignoring all my points an stating it has been passed to another bailiff. What is m y next move on this???? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Amy]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

Do you have the details of the charges applied and the dates of the alleged visits that you could post up?

[trlnurse]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

Hi there Amy, Yes I certainly do:

12/4/10 - Visit fee 1 £24.50 x 3 (no visit letter received via royal mail same date)
13/5/10 Visit fee 1 £24.50 (no visit, as no letter received)
24/5/10 Visit fee 2 £18.00 x 4 (this was the first visit by the bailiff, left letter)
27/5/10 Attendance/Van £110, levy £29.00, Sch 5 Head H £24.50 (again, this visit did not happen, this was the day I telephone the bailiff and made the first payment over the phone, arranged to meet with him on 3/6/10)
3/6/10 levy £64.00, , walking possession £12.00, Sch 5 Head £24.50
29/6/10 levy £44.00, levy £39.00, walking possession £12.00, Attendance/Van £110 x2, Sch 5 Head £24.50 x 2 (again this visit did not happen, telephone bailiff to make payment)

Total - £773.50

I have written to Jacobs highlighting these clear errors, however they have responded and addressed any of my concerns, only to state that their charges are legal!! and the reasons they have charged my more than once on the same day is due to the 4 liability orders.

Any advice greatefully received

[MAXXX]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

Financial Ombudsman?

I thought they were suppose to levy distress and recover the costs of the person instructing them fiirst, before taking their own cut?

They at least have to be seen to be acting responsibly, whats the point of increasing the debt and causing more confusion by not explaining themselves - Doesn't that risk what they are trying to recover for their client?

[trlnurse]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

They have paid Croydon Council approx £1,900 out of the £2,600 I have paid to them, and kept the rest in charges. As they are now stating I still owe Croyon Council over £700, they have kindly now informed me there is another £180 of charges on top of that amount!!!

I cannot believe these charges are legal just or fair and refuse to pay them another penny until this is sorted out. I have tried to write to them but they have written back stating their fees are legal and I am liable for them.

I'm really at a loss as to what my next step should be??

[Amy]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

So in a nutshell we are talking about 3 liability orders that were, you thought, paid in full?

There is no doubt about this, this is fraud. The bailiffs know full well that they are not allowed to do this, they just hope that you do not.

The legislation states that a first and second visit fee may be charged for a liability order. The bailiffs believe that this also applies when there are multiple liability orders are in place. You are correct and this is not the case unless the visits are made on separate occasions, which is highly unlikely and if no paperwork has been left then you cannot be expected to pay. The bailiff is obligated to leave or send paperwork detailing any work or visits that he has made which incurs a fee.

What goods did the bailiff levy? There are several levy fees applied to here, did he levy different goods each time?

The Schedule H Header Fee only applies once the full amount is paid and the goods are returned to your control, which according to Jacobs, is not the case here.

Since Jacobs have quite clearly committed fraud, I think you need to write a formal letter to the Revenues Manager of your council pointing out that it is illegal to apply these fees. If you need any help with this, then post up a draft and we will take a look for you.

If you owed £2,600 in council tax and you have paid £2,600 then part of this amount will remain outstanding because the bailiffs are allowed to subtract their fees before forwarding the payment to the council. Therefore, the liability to the council will not be paid in full.

However, as above, the fees that have been charged here are fraudulent and you should only pay them for work that they have carried out and then only the fees they are legally permitted to charge.

[trlnurse]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

From memory, it was one seatee, my TV, which is old, an old computer and DVD player. I think that was it.

Also where do I stand with the visits that never happened, they only visited my house twice not the 6 imes they are claiming?? is there any legislation I can quote?

Thanks so much for your advice.

[Amy]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

From memory, it was one seatee, my TV, which is old, an old computer and DVD player. I think that was it.

Yes, but he has charged you several levy fees and it is not possible to levy the same goods. So if this is what happened with the latter levies, then they are illegal and need to be removed.

Also where do I stand with the visits that never happened, they only visited my house twice not the 6 imes they are claiming?? is there any legislation I can quote?

Read my 3rd paragraph again and also read The National Standards for Enforcement Agents which states among other things the following:-

"Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary. If a written request is made an itemised account of fees will be provided."


I also suggest you have a good read of the bailiff forum and specifically search for and understand that the bailiffs have committed fraud by adding fees for work which they have not carried out and fees for which they are not entitled to. Use 'fraud' as your keyword.

[trlnurse]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

Thanks a lot Amy, I will let you know how I get on.

[Amy]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

You're very welcome and like I said if you need us to check your letter, we will xx

[trlnurse]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

Sorry Amy,

Can they only charge the Schedule 5 header when they have levied goods?? As I am only willing to accept the levy fees for the date they actually attended on the 3/6/2010, as they are stating that is the only order I have not finished paying for the can't charge my the Sch 5 for that.

However, if they did not levy goods for the other liability orders that I have finished paying for can they charge me for the Sch 5?

[Amy]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

When a levy takes place it means that the bailiff now owns the levied goods. However, in exchange for your payments the bailiff agrees not to remove the goods.

A Sch 5 Header Fee is only applicable once the total amount is paid, which according to Jacobs is not the case here and it is a fee for 'returning' your goods.

They cannot have it both ways - it's either paid in full or it's not.

[trlnurse]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

Excellent, I'm composing a letter to send to both Jacobs and the Council, once I have composed it I'll post it for your comments.

[trlnurse]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

OK been working on my response to Jacobs regarding there fraudulent fees, firstly I have put this table together:

Date
Description
Charge
Your Reference
Comments
12/4/2010
Visit fee 1
£24.50
5344671
Fraudulent Charge – No visit. Letter received via Royal Mail dated 12/4/2010. Requesting to contact office
12/4/2010
Visit fee 1
£24.50
5344670
(as above)
12/4/2010
Visit fee 1
£24.50
5344669
(as above)
13/5/2010
Visit fee 1
£24.50
5361563
Fraudulent Charge – No visit. Letter received via Royal Mail requesting to contact office
24/5/2010
Visit fee 2
£18.00
5361563
No documentation relating to this order left.
24/5/2010
Visit fee 2
£18.00
5344671
First actual visit fee - charge £24.50 (no schedule of fees/charges left)
24/5/2010
Visit fee 2
£18.00
5344670
No documentation relating to this order left.
24/5/2010
Visit fee 2
£18.00
5344669
No documentation relating to this order left.
27/5/2010
Attendance/Van
£1100
5361563
Fraudulent Charge – No Visit. Telephone conversation made by me.
27/5/2010
Levy fee
£29.00
“
(as above)
27/5/2010
Sch 5 Header
£24.50
“
Fraudulent charge – No visit or levy had been made on this order.
27/5/2010
Payment by D/C
£1.00
“
Non-prescribed fee - Illegal.
3/6/2010
Levy fee
£64.00
5344670
Levy of 5 items, however no Notice of Seizure was left.
3/6/2010
Walking possession
£12.00
“

3/6/2010
Sch 5 Header
£24.50
“
Illegal charge as this can only be charged when full payment received, you are claiming this order has not been paid.
29/6/2010
Levy fee
£39.00
5344671
Fraudulent Charge – No Visit. Telephone conversation as per agreed payment plan.
29/6/2010
Attendance/Van
£110
“
(as above)
29/6/2010
Sch 5 Header
£24.50
“

29/6/2010
Levy fee
£44.00
5344669
(as above)
29/6/2010
Attendance/Van
£110
“
(as above)
29/6/2010
Walking possession
£12.00
“
(as above)
29/6/2010
Sch 5 Header
£24.50
“

29/6/2010
Payment by D/C
£1.00
“
Non-prescribed fee - Illegal
7/10/2010
Payment by D/C
£1.00
5344670
Non-prescribed fee - Illegal
7/10/2010
Payment by D/C
£1.00
5344669
Non-prescribed fee - Illegal


Here is the unfinished letter (first draft), I'm a bit stuck, so thought I'd come to you guys for a little help!!
Dear Sir/Madam,
Re: Fraudulent and Illegal Charges
Further to your letter dated 19th January, whereby you state you have noted the contents of my correspondence.
I am writing to you again, is it would appear you have not noted the contents of my email in the slightest. I have therefore on your suggestion sought legal advice regarding your illegal charges.
Lets start with a breakdown of the fees you have charged me and taken, (see attached table).
You will note that in any letters left after a visit should have the name and contact number for the Bailiff that has attended on the letters. The letters I have received on 12/4/2010, 29/4/2010, 13/5/2010 do not have this information, they were therefore not hand delivered by a Certificated Bailiff but were in fact sent via Royal Mail, these are therefore fraudulent charges.
The letter received from yourselves on 19/5/2010 was in response to my email proposing payments. This is the first letter that makes references to my account being passed to a Certificated Bailiff, you have put his name and contact number on this letter for me to make contact with him. You should also note the mobile number on this letter is in fact incorrect.
The visit on the 24/5/2010 did occur and a letter was left by your Certificated Bailiff Mr Andrew Davies with his name, signature and correct mobile number. However, the letter that was left refers to an amount of £643.01, and would therefore only relate to 1 of the 4 orders, you therefore can legally only charge me for 1 visit. Unless you are able to prove that you visited me on 4 separate occasions, and left me 4 separate letters detailing any work or visits with fees incurred, you cannot legally charge me for these visits.
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']27/5/2010 this alleged visit is completely fraudulent. I telephoned your Certificated Bailiff Mr xxxxxxxxx on this date, following the visit on the 24/5/2010, I made a payment over the telephone for £400 and you took £406.30 (which is another issue altogether). There was no attendance, and no levy fee. Again, if he had visited my property he would have been required to leave a letter, which he did not.


The 3/6/2010 was an arranged visit with the Bailiff following my telephone conversation and the only other visit that actually occurred. However you have charged me for Schedule 5 H Header fee, this is only applied once the full amount is paid and you are claiming that this order has not been paid, you therefore cannot charge me for this.
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Schedule 5 of The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations states (H) where no sale takes place by reason of payment or tender in the circumstances referred to in Regulation 45(4) - either (i) £24.50 or (ii) the actual costs incurred to a maximum of 5% of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made.

You should also be aware that The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, Schedule 5 does not provide for a van fee nor does it provide for a card fee to be charged. Any fees that are not permitted under the above regulations and schedule are, therefore, illegal because they are non-prescribed fees.

[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']During the visit by Mr Davies on 3/6/2010, we made arrangements for a payment plan, the next payment being due on 29/6/2010. Here we find more fraudulent charges, as there was no visit on this date, only a telephone call made by me to Mr Davies to make the arranged payment.[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']No notice of fees, you are supposed to supply me with a notice of fees on every occasion, however you have never supplied me with these;[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']
The National Standard for Enforcement Agents states “The enforcement agent will produce an inventory of the goods seized and leave it with the debtor, or at the premises, with any other documents that are required by regulations or statute.

Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary. If a written request is made an itemised account of fees will be provided.”


The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, Schedule 5 allows for one attendance only with a vehicle with a view to the removal of goods (but only once a valid levy is in place). The legislation states that “reasonable costs and fees incurred" [may be charged].

[/font]You are attempting to charge me for work that did not happen, this is fraud. You have failed to supply me on any occasions a list of your charges and fees, you have taken these illegal fees from the money I have paid you for Croydon Council, without any prior knowledge from me this amounts to theft.
I think the problem I am having, is here are so many issues here, I just want to make sure I cover them all. Anyway any comments gratefully received.[/font]

[trlnurse]

Re: Help!!!!!!! Jacobs Bailiffs

Sorry the table didn't come out very well on here, have pu as an attachement.