Council are condoning bailiff charges

[dgrg]

Hi All

I'm hoping someone can help me with my council tax case. I'll be as brief as possible with the history, however if anyone needs further details in order to help then i'll be happy divulge those details as and when.

To cut a long story short I sent numerous proposals for the council to reclaim my council tax arrears from the bailiff company as i was led to believe that they were charging illegal fees, due to the fact that i could not trust the bailiff I wanted to council to take back the debt. We were paying bailiff, allbeit not what they said we'd agreed. Of our payments they were retaining a % against their costs.

The council (Head of Revenues) has since responded stating that they cannot find any evidence of the bailiff charging 'unquestionably illegal' fees. So it would appear they condone the charging actions of their bailiffs and have advised me to continue to pay bailiffs direct, and told me i am still liable for them.

The fees charged so far are as below:

Aug 7 Visit fee 1 £24.50
Aug 8 Visit fee 2 £18.50
Aug 31 Levy fee £67.00
Aug 31 Attendance/Van £150.00
Sep 3 Payment by d/c £1.00
Oct 11 Payment by d/c £1.00
Nov 13 Payment by d/c £1.00

Other things to note are:

The current balance of liability tips just over £100
Bailif has retained £142 of our payments against their fees above.
Bailiff has never gained peaceful entry so no WP singed.
We have not ever received a notice of siezure listing goods levied upon.

I really need to draft a letter to both council and bailiff challenging the make up, in particular of the van and levy fees as i understand they cannot be charged on the same day but I really need some help on the legal terminology.

Can anyone help please?

Many thanks one and all

[Caspar]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Hi dgrg,

Welcome to Legal Beagles - good to see you here. I'm pretty sure the bailiffs are not allowed to charge the van fee and levy fee on the same day, visits 1 & 2 between them overcharge by 50p, but it's still illegal even though only a small amount, and the levy charge seems high to me.

The person you really need is Amy - she's the expert on bailiffs. It's often quiet on here over the weekends, so don't be surprised if you don't get a response today, but I'm sure she'll be around soon.

Who have you communicated with in the council and which council is it?

Finally make sure that any payments you make are direct to the council, NOT to the bailiffs. As you've learnt the hard way they only pass on part of the money after taking their fees.

You'll get sound advice here!

Caspar

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

How did you get to know about these fees? Council, bailiffs, did they volunteer the information?

Did the bailiff leave notification of the fees on each visit?

Is there any evidence that the bailiff actually visited your property on the occasions listed above.

Have they levied on a vehicle? I know you won't know this if you have not received a notice of seizure, but if you can find out if this is the case, whether or not it is your vehicle or someone elses they have done this illegally because they didn't leave a notice of seizure.

Remember the council staff you are dealing with are instructed to lie.

[dgrg]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Thanks for the welcome folks, I Hope this information helps

Council: Hersmere BC

Contacted: CEO

Replies from: Senior recover officer, then Head of Finance, Revenues & Benefits (cc'd CEO, Bailiff, Senior recovery officer)

Confirmation of charges: by letter after i requested it in writing from the bailiff (nothing left at time of visits)

Evidence of 1st / 2nd Visit: have found letter dated 9th August, not 7th or 8th.

Evidence of 31st August visit: Hand delivered letter with hand written balance owed on bailiff standard letter - no details of charges.

Evidence of 21st December visit: Hand delivered letter with hand written balance owed bailiff standard letter - no details of charges.


Would like to challenge the levy by asking what levied on in my letter to them, because to date they have not divulged goods levied on. (my car was not at the address on 31st August, but was on 21st December so they would have the reg. now but it wouldnt have been proportional to size of debt at time of that visit. It would be now as we made signiificant payments to the council direct over xmas period).

Both attending Bailiffs were registerd

[TUTTSI]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Hi Dgrg

Welcome to Legal Beagles.

Here is the Bailiff guide which you might find helpful
http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=14113

All the best Tuttsi

[dgrg]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Hi Dgrg

Welcome to Legal Beagles.

Here is the Bailiff guide which you might find helpful
http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=14113

All the best Tuttsi

Thanks Tuttsi

I have read the guide it is so useful, if only everyone who had a visit would think to look here it would give them so much more comfort when dealing with these companies.

[Amy]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Since your council along with most other councils believe that bailiffs are telling the truth, that once the debt is passed to bailiffs it is out of their hands and that they do not have duties to help, perhaps you should point them in the direction of the following legislation.

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, Schedule 5 does not provide for a van fee nor does it provide for a card fee to be charged. You need to search the bailiff forum for ‘fraud’ – you will find lots of information on this subject. Any fees that are not permitted under the above regulations and schedule are, therefore, illegal because they are non-prescribed fees.

The National Standard for Enforcement Agents states “The enforcement agent will produce an inventory of the goods seized and leave it with the debtor, or at the premises, with any other documents that are required by regulations or statute.

Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary. If a written request is made an itemised account of fees will be provided.”

So, the levy fee should be removed immediately

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, Schedule 5 allows for one attendance only with a vehicle with a view to the removal of goods (but only once a valid levy is in place). The legislation states that “reasonable costs and fees incurred" [may be charged].

You might also like to ask your council what is reasonable about a charge of £150 for one van when you can hire a van for significantly less than this. You should ask them if you were the only debtor visited that day because only then can you be expected to pay the full cost of the van for any particular day - if more than one debtor was visited, then the cost of the van should be equally divided by all debtors, but the bailiffs hope you do not know this and the councils do not care and cannot be bothered to find out.

Most people who fall behind with their council tax payments do not do so on purpose; they are not non-payers, they simply cannot afford the payments and in incidences such as being unable to pay, the council has a duty to help make an affordable payment agreement. Bailiffs should only used as a last resort and not as an automatic step when one is behind with payments and regardless of this, it does not absolve the council of their duties.

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Hi dgrg,

It looks like Amy has sourced all the ammunition you need for the council.

Because you're letting them know you are aware that they're acting outside the regulations, this in theory should make them call off the bailiffs and remove the fees.

My opinion is that if they do this, it will be to avoid a potential complaint to the LGO, Police or similar. Of course they would not admit this and would give the impression that you got off lightly.

Evidence of 1st / 2nd Visit: have found letter dated 9th August, not 7th or 8th.

Just to clarify the above.

Was the letter dated the 9th August hand delivered? If it was posted, that is not evidence that they actually visited your property, and they are committing or attempting to commit fraud.

If hand delivered, it is only evidence of 1 visit, and again they are committing or attempting to commit fraud.

Edit:

I don't know whether or not a formal complaint to the council would put you in a better position. Presumably if it is a formal complaint, they will have less opportunity of covering up the incident.

[dgrg]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Amy this absolutely fabulous, thank you so much. Caspar has been a massive help to us and said you would be very good, this is the exact direction I feel we needed. Thank you so much, i feel this adresses our concerns over what is legitimate and correct and will hopefully get some positive results.

now tme to put this into words.... I will of course update the thread upon return correspondence as I'm a firm beleiver in conclusions to issues for others to see in the hope that it will help other users of this fantastic resouce.

[dgrg]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Hi dgrg,

It looks like Amy has sourced all the ammunition you need for the council.

Because you're letting them know you are aware that they're acting outside the regulations, this in theory should make them call off the bailiffs and remove the fees.

My opinion is that if they do this, it will be to avoid a potential complaint to the LGO, Police or similar. Of course they would not admit this and would give the impression that you got off lightly.



Just to clarify the above.

Was the letter dated the 9th August hand delivered? If it was posted, that is not evidence that they actually visited your property, and they are committing or attempting to commit fraud.

If hand delivered, it is only evidence of 1 visit, and again they are committing or attempting to commit fraud.

Edit:

I don't know whether or not a formal complaint to the council would put you in a better position. Presumably if it is a formal complaint, they will have less opportunity of covering up the incident.

I honestly am unable to remember if the letter dated the 9th was hand delivered or not. We do have evidence of the two visits subsequent to those dates so I think rather than complicate things further i may consider letting the two visit fees slide, allbeit they were on different dates. Would it better to concentrate on the clearly ill placed van & levy fees as we have a much stronger case?

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

I honestly am unable to remember if the letter dated the 9th was hand delivered or not. We do have evidence of the two visits subsequent to those dates so I think rather than complicate things further i may consider letting the two visit fees slide, allbeit they were on different dates. Would it better to concentrate on the clearly ill placed van & levy fees as we have a much stronger case?

As you say maybe it's better to concentrate on the van and levy fees, though the more ammunition you have the better I would think. Good luck anyway.

[dgrg]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Hi everyone I have an update:

Council have now recalled the debt, they received a battering email adressed to the ceo on Monday am, the content of which was helped along massively by Amy's key points above and the incredible help from Casper, without you guys we would have struggled (if been ale at all) to acheive this and i am so grateful to you & everyone here who has contributed to this all for your help.

Truly grateful thank you.

The reply was flat though, and I havent finished with them yet, they say all charges have been taken off the account but they havent deducted the amounts retained by the bailiff against our arrears so i think it's time to drop them a little reply tomorrow.

[Amy]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

You are very welcome xx

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

Well done dgrg it is a good feeling to get a result and a weight off you mind no doubt.

Well Done to Amy and Caspar too as just goes to show with the right advice directed in the right place we can defeat these draconian measures put in are way.

Onwards and Upwards for you now dgrg.

[dgrg]

Re: Council are condoning bailiff charges

It was a very good feeling that couldn't have been acheived without the:beagle:help.

I hope others read this experience and gain the confidence that you can challenge the council and that you don't have to deal only with the bailiff (even though the council will repeatedly say you have to). don't give in to them, anything you're unsure about just ask.

If you're receiving threats from bailiffs with mystery fees and no documentation then you have every right to complain and it is possible to get the debt recalled.

Thank you one & all