Urgent help with Bailiff fees

[NEEDINGHELP]

Hello all,

I hope I will get a good pointer on how to handle my case with the bailiff, I had a bailiff notificatin of intended baliff removal through my letter post yestarday while I was at work for a PCN fine with Newham coucil in London. I called the baliff as directed by the letter and when I called I told the baliff I was aware of the PCN but surpised that I got no prior notice to say the issue was been passed on or handled by the baliff. The baliff claimed a letter was sent to about a month ago and I said I never got one, any I ask how much she was chasing to collect and she said I had to pay £355.58. to which i replied was un reasonable amount. I requested for a brakedown of the fees and she could not give me and asked that I write to their office Whyte & co to request for that. Now Today, I called the company and they would not talk to me saying that a baliff was already handlingmy case and as such they would not talk to me. After calling the baliff several time, I made verbal proposal to make a part payment of £200 today and pay the balance by friday, she then said will give me till friday to pay the full amount. I asked if i would get a receipt and breakdon of the payment she said that I will need to write them for that.

As regards the PCN, I got a final demand notice for £155 from Newham Council round about Decmber 2009 and notice of intention to obtain county court warrant. I applied for a time to fill a statutory declartion/witness statement with the court and I was given till 11th of Feb 10 to fill on. But unfortunately due to other personal and more pressing life pressures I could not get this declaration done within the time frame and uptill yestarday I had done nothing and neither did I get any notice for eitheir Newham council nor the court.

I called Newham council today and they will not deal with me as well saying I should contact the baliff.
Now I know I have to pay as the baliff has said they will come back and the fees will go up more. I feel a fee more than the fine seem to me very unreasonable and it willl be a big injustice if the system permits this to go on.
I have researched the internet for information and I see that this fee appears illegal.

My questions are these

1. What can do when it is very obvoius the fee the baliff is quoting is unreasonable?
2. How do I challenge the fee without getting into ugly situation with the bailiff as they appear t be lord and master
3. If I make the payment is there any process i can follow to recover any ureasonable or illegal charge.

Please any ideas as to how to challenge this will be well valued.

Thank you all

[Amy]

Re: Urgent help with Bailif fees

This thread is a good place to start bailiffs claiming fees on paid pcn - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum or alternatively search the bailiff forum for PCN - this will provide you will lots of help and information as will this guide Bailiff Guide - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

[NEEDINGHELP]

Re: Urgent help with Bailif fees

Thanks Amy for your pointer yestarday, I fired a letter of complaint to the bailiffs today and followed it up with a phone call and like clock work they have responded to my complaints with the fees as Indicated below. I need anyone with experience to let me know if these fees are acceptable, I also have a copy of my letter so as to give details of what has happened so far.

Thank you for your email.

Please see the following breakdown of your account as requested -

£155.00 - Warrant & Court Costs
£11.20 - First Application Letter
£2.50 - DVLA
£47.00 - Levy Fee
£110.00 - Attendance Fee
£29.88 - VAT on Fees

Below is a copy of my letter, adapted from a letter from this forum

Dear Sirs,


I write with reference to case ID 3**** and hereby register my complaint about the conduct of your bailiff with regards to charges relating to this case. Upon my return to my home after work on the 12th of April 2010 I got a letter of an intention to remove goods from my premises on your company letter head a note stamped in ink on the said letter asking me to get in touch with the assigned bailiff to avoid further actions. I called the bailiff as requested and stated my concern that I was surprised that I had not received any notice prior to the 12th of April informing me that the case had been passed to your office for Newham council nor your office. I informed by the bailiff a letter was sent by your office to my address and I stated that I never got any letter. I asked if a copy can be resent but was asked to contact your office. Nevertheless I asked your bailiff how much she was chasing to collect. The bailiff informed me it was £355.58, to which I responded was unreasonable and require a breakdown of the cost. I was told the fine was £155 and the remaining are charges by your bailiff. I was told to call your office and request for the breakdown of cost, I called your office on the 13th of April and I was shocked that no one at you office was ready to accept my request for a breakdown of the cost and I was told to only deal with the bailiff. I have now been given till Friday to make this unreasonable payment otherwise more cost will be incurred and threatened with removal of my goods if I do not comply.

Now my position is as follows:

I am aware that the fine will have to be paid, but I would request to have a full breakdown of your charges relating to this case. In line with the regulation on the conduct of bailiffs from HM courts and the CBA excerpt below

“Certificated bailiffs — collecting council tax, community charge, distress for rent, road traffic debts and non-domestic rates, should leave a copy of the fee scales that they can charge with you when they visit your premises. Bailiffs and enforcement officers are not allowed to charge you more than the amounts stated for that piece of work in the scale of fees.”

I was not left with any notice of fees chargeable and as such will like to remind you of the asked by question asked by Lord Lucas to the Minister of State, Home office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal) “whether a bailiff who repeatedly charge for work that has not been done commits a fraud within the meaning of Sections I to 5 of the Fruad Act 2006; and if so, which section of the act apply; and whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not criminal matter”

The Minister of State, Home office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal) replied: “A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the fraud act 2006. One means by which the offence can be committed is set out in section 2, on fraud by false representation. This section applies where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to risk of loss. It is possible that, where a bailiff repeated charges for work that has not been done this conduct will amount to fraudulent trading either under section 9 of the 2006 act or under the provisions on fraudulent trading in company legislation”.

In the likely event that I do not get a timely reply from yourselves and forced to pay this charges, please be aware that I intend to take my complaints further. I look forward to your comments.

Yours faithfully,

Please I need help to verify if these charges are permissible

[Amy]

Re: Urgent help with Bailif fees

£155.00 - Warrant & Court Costs - is this the total you received from the council?

£11.20 - First Application Letter - yes, this is fine.
£2.50 - DVLA - yes, also fine.
£47.00 - Levy Fee - No, they did not levy did they?
£110.00 - Attendance Fee - No, they did not attend your property, did they?
£29.88 - VAT on Fees - yes, this is fine.

[NEEDINGHELP]

Re: Urgent help with Bailif fees

Thanks Amy again,

Well all I got was an unsealed letter of "intention to remove good" through my letter box as this had no stamp I believe this was hand delivered, would this consistute Attendance?. I was not at home at the time so, there was no levy done and would so they should not be charging for that.

[Amy]

Re: Urgent help with Bailif fees

You've answered your own question, go for it xx

[NEEDINGHELP]

Re: Urgent help with Bailif fees

Hello Again everyone, Amy thanks for you advice, my case continues with the bailiff, today I sent another complaint letter to them (see content below) and I called the bailiff personally to inform her that I don to agree with some of the fees they have charged but she remainds adamant that I will have to pay the full fees or they will revisit my house and incur more charges.

Now I need advice as to what to do, Do I pay the fees and then take the matter to the court? or should I pay the part I agree with?. They have said they will return tomorrow if payment is not made.


Content of letter sent out today

Dear Sirs
CASE ID 3*****
Whilst I thank you for the breakdown of your cost you have provided, I am concerned that you have ignored my request for a copy of the letter purported to have been posted to my address . When I spoke with you on the phone (1pm, 14th of April) and as I mentioned in my earlier complaint letter, I requested for the copy of the purported letter your bailiff claimed was posted to my address before her visit on the 12th of April 2010. As you would be aware from my letter of complaint I stated and affirmed that I did not get any letter. I was shocked at your response on the phone that you do not have a copy of the letter, but you promised to forward a template to me. I am disappointed that you have not made good your promise as this was not included in your reply to me.
At this point, bearing in mind your response that you do not have a copy of the said letter I am in doubt if the letter ever existed or was sent out and I hereby request again that you prove otherwise by sending me a scanned copy. As you would be quite aware, it is part of good practice of your profession to give prior notice of your taking charge of a debt collection and on this occasion I did not get any notice of this and neither have you been able to show that this was done by yourselves. I would like to use this opportunity to remind you of the guideline for the “National Standard for Enforcement Agents” which, among other things states that: -
“Enforcement agents will on each occasion when a visit is made to a debtor’s property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary. If a written request is made an itemised account of fees will be provided”. Please be aware that your bailiff has failed to comply with this guideline. On her visit on the 12th of April no notice of fees was left for me.
With regards to the breakdown of the £355.58 charge as provided by you, I hereby challenge the following charge(s) within the context of EVANS v SOUTH RIBBLE BOROUGH COUNCIL (1991) COURT OF APPEAL.
1. £47.00 - Levy Fee
In his Judgment Mr Justice Simon Brown, reviewed the law and he concluded the following:
“Once entry is made, very little in the way of seizure and impounding is required…...but there must in the first instance be an entry (into the property), thus: it is my clear conclusion that external inspection and posting through the letterbox is a course of action insufficient to bring about the legal consequences of Distress” And that: the process of distress consists ofthree stages;
· the entryinto the premises,
· the seizureof the goods
· the subsequent securing of the goods (generally called impounding)
As I was not at home on the 12th of April 2010 when your bailiff visited my address, and neither was any entry gained into my property to permit the three stages of levy. Your charge of a levy fee of £47 is therefore invalid in line with the ruling of this case and I hereby refuse the charge and request a review of your whole charge. I will also like to draw your attention to the ruling on charging fees for work not done by the Minister of State, Home office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)
The Minister of State, Home office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal) maintained that: “A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the fraud act 2006. One means by which the offence can be committed is set out in section 2, on fraud by false representation. This section applies where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to risk of loss. It is possible that, where a bailiff repeated charges for work that has not been done this conduct will amount to fraudulent trading either under section 9 of the 2006 act or under the provisions on fraudulent trading in company legislation”.
2. £110.00 - Attendance Fee
Follow from the ruling in EVANS v SOUTH RIBBLE BOROUGH COUNCIL (1991) COURT OF APPEAL highlighting that entry to the property would have to have occurred for levy on goods to take place and also knowing that without this, a walking possession can never be in place, as the case is in my situation. I hereby refuse your charge of an attendance fee. I draw your attention to Judgement by District Judge Avent in ANTHONY CULLIGAN v JASON SIMKIN & MARTSON GROUP LTD
District Judge Avent stated that:

"…………… the bailiff should not and, as a matter of law cannot take any steps to remove goods until he has given the debtor a reasonable opportunity to pay what is due at the time of seizure. This being so, I cannot see that Form 7 (Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory) can or should include any costs of removal"

On the matter of the charge of £100 for "attending to remove" (although the vehicle was never actually removed) in that a tow truck was called and actually arrived at the Claimant’s home, District Judge Advent confirmed that:
"This amount (£100) cannot be recovered because the defendant (Marston Group Ltd) have produced no evidence whatsoever as to how this charge has been arrived at and therefore they are unable to show that it is reasonable”.
The District Judge in his conclusion further stated that:

“I would also add that if the Defendant or either of them in the light of this judgement now continued to apply such charges in the manner in which they have done up to now and, specifically, charge fees of £100 for applying an immobilisation device then that would amount to conduct which may well then found a legitimate complaint because in my judgement it would be unlawful....".

“What this means in effect is that Bailiffs who continue to make unlawfulcharges may be guilty of misconduct and have their Certificates removed.”

I again on basis of the foregoing, maintain that you attendance fee is invalid and I refuse your charge and hereby ask for a review of your charges to reflect a true and reasonable cost.
Finally I will like to reaffirm my request as follows:
1. I require a scanned copy of the letter you claimed was initially posted to my address. I will like to know the content of the letter.
2. I refuse the following charges making up the £355.58

£155.00 - Warrant & Court Costs- Accept
£11.20 - First Application Letter- Accept
£2.50 – DVLA-Accept
£47.00 - Levy Fee-Refuse
£110.00 - Attendance Fee-Refuse
£29.88 - VAT on Fees-Accept upon review of net charges
3. I demand a review of the charge to reflect true and reasonable cost.
In the likely event that I do not get a timely reply from yourselves and forced to pay this charges, please be aware that I intend to take my complaints further with the appropriate bodies including the following amongst others.
Dartford County Court
The CBA
I look forward to your comments.
Yours faithfully,

[WendyB]

Re: Urgent help with Bailif fees

and of course the VAT figure will be incorrect once you have removed the charges that you are not going to pay.

[NEEDINGHELP]

Re: Urgent help with Bailiff fees

Hello everyone,

Just to give an update on my issue with whyte & co. They refused to talk to me regarding my complaints and I have finally been force to make the full payment £355.58 on friday. I have sent them an SAR over the weeken by recorded post.

Now I am ready to go to small claims court for refund of the illegal charges. Does anyone have a first hand experience with the procedure and any outcome of any case with bailffs taken to such courts.

thanks

[infinateflea]

Re: Urgent help with Bailiff fees

Hi everyone, good thread, very similar to where i am with Marstons, i have paid an outstanding debt to them following a removal notice posted through my door. I have written to them and got a breakdown of the fees and charges incurred, they are as follows:-

Fine £275
Compliance Fee £75
Attendance Fee £200
Debit Card charge £1.

Are these fees Legal? and what if the baliff Is not certificated?

I have written to Marstons and they consider the case closed as i ve paid them. Where next?

[Amy]

Re: Urgent help with Bailiff fees

Well, I suppose you have to give them credit for being inventive.

I have never heard of a "compliance fee." The "attendance fee" is way too high, how is this figure made up?

The debit card fee is not allowed. You should search the bailiff forum for "fraud."

[infinateflea]

Re: Urgent help with Bailiff fees

It even states these fees on their website. Have spoken to citizens advice, they sent me a link to Marstons website, thank you very helpful!! and a standard leaflet stated what their and your rights are.
I have spoken to the Enforcement Team and they said Form 4 is basically irrelevant as he is not certificated, but has made an application.
Was also told that these fees are set out in Marstons contract with the Magistrates, when i asked if this is legal, the phone went very quite.

[Amy]

Re: Urgent help with Bailiff fees

If he was/is not certificated - what are Marston going to do about it? He is not allowed to collect unless he is certificated.

You need to write a formal complaint letter to them - unless you have already done so.

[infinateflea]

Re: Urgent help with Bailiff fees

Thanks for the quick response, i have written to them asking
The name of the court that issued the certificate for the bailiff in charge.

and the reponse was:-
We have a contractual arrangement with the court which requires our Enforcement Agents to be certificated with six months of commencement of employment.

Yet he still claimed to be a bailiff

[Amy]

Re: Urgent help with Bailiff fees

I don't understand - was he certificated or wasn't he?