DWP : Claim against Estate.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

OK, let me try to make this query simple.

Mum had no other source of income other than her pension credit.

She had no private savings or investments at any time.

The cash residue from her estate due to her thriftiness during the past 12 years of receiving pension credit.

Why would the DWP need me to provide proof of this? A simple calculation by the DWP themselves would prove that it would be possible to end up with a surplus.

Do I need to provide them with bank statements as they have requested?

Ref: "s.71, SSA 1992:

Overpayments - general
(1) Where it is determined that, whether fraudulently or otherwise, any person has misrepresented, or failed to disclose, any material fact and in consequence of the misrepresentation or failure—
(a) a payment has been made in respect of a benefit to which this section applies; or
(b) any sum recoverable by or on behalf of the Secretary of State in connection with any such payment has not been recovered,
the Secretary of State shall be entitled to recover the amount of any payment which he would not have made or any sum which he would have received but for the misrepresentation or failure to disclose.

(2) Where any such determination as is referred to in subsection (1) above is made on an appeal or review, there shall also be determined in the course of the appeal or review the question whether any, and if so what, amount is recoverable under that subsection by the Secretary of State.

(3) An amount recoverable under subsection (1) above is in all cases recoverable from the person who misrepresented the fact or failed to disclose it.

(4) In relation to cases where payments of benefit to which this section applies have been credited to a bank account or other account under arrangements made with the agreement of the beneficiary or a person acting for him, circumstances may be prescribed in which the Secretary of State is to be entitled to recover any amount paid in excess of entitlement; but any such regulations shall not apply in relation to any payment unless before he agreed to the arrangements such notice of the effect of the regulations as may be prescribed was given in such manner as may be prescribed to the beneficiary or to a person acting for him.

..............................

.........(8) Where any amount paid is recoverable under (a)subsection (1) above......

...(10) Any amount recoverable under the provisions mentioned in subsection (8) above—
(a )if the person from whom it is recoverable resides in England and Wales and the county court so orders, shall be recoverable by execution issued from the county court or otherwise as if it were payable under an order of that court; and
(b) if he resides in Scotland, shall be enforced in like manner as an extract registered decree arbitral bearing a warrant for execution issued by the sheriff court of any sheriffdom in Scotland.

(11) This section applies to the following benefits—
(a)benefits as defined in section 122 of the Contributions and Benefits Act;
(b) subject to section 72 below, income support;
(c) family credit;
(d) disability working allowance;
(e) any social fund payments such as are mentioned in section 138(1)(a) or (2) of the Contributions and Benefits Act; and
(f) child benefit."

Not unless they have a court order for the bank accounts are you to provide the bank statement. The deceased never fraudulently claimed benefit, neither did she fail to disclose information, neither did she misrepresent information as per s.71, SSA 1992. DWP need your agreement to consent to the bank accounts' statements. You are therefore under no legal obligation to provide these details since the estate has been distributed already anyway. Now do you feel better? They have no power unless you agree even if there were a failure to disclose, fraud, misrepresentation.

[AVON C]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

Thank you so much for your input. Shall I simply ignore the DWP letter?

[Ripped-Off]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

I would.

If your mum received pension credit up to the day that she died then, unless her circumstances had changed and these were not reported to DWP, I can see no reason how she could have been overpaid.

How much do they think she has been overpaid by or for how long? It surely can't be that much can it?

You might want to have a look at the State Pension Credit Act 2002, the State Pension Credit Regulations 2002 including the amendments since 2002 and all the associated regulations on the legislation.gov website. It may be that the DWP has uncovered something that might have affected how much pension credit or associated benefit she was entitled to, but until they tell you what that is, there's little you can do.

[charitynjw]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...50213.pdf.html

10. The legal obligations of the Personal Representative are to collect the assets, pay
the estate debts and distribute the residue (if any) to beneficiaries in that order. An
executor who distributes an estate before paying the debts becomes personally liable for
debts which arise later. (*The Trustee Act 1925 section 27 provides a safeguard. The
executor can place formal advertisements in the London Gazette, the official
government newspaper, and in a newspaper circulating in the locality of the deceased’s
home, giving possible creditors notice that claims should be received within a stated
time period of 2 months. Only when that time has expired can the executor then
distribute the estate and dismiss any late claims from creditors.)

(*This is applicable before the assets are distributed)

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...50213.pdf.html

10. The legal obligations of the Personal Representative are to collect the assets, pay
the estate debts and distribute the residue (if any) to beneficiaries in that order. An
executor who distributes an estate before paying the debts becomes personally liable for
debts which arise later. (*The Trustee Act 1925 section 27 provides a safeguard. The
executor can place formal advertisements in the London Gazette, the official
government newspaper, and in a newspaper circulating in the locality of the deceased’s
home, giving possible creditors notice that claims should be received within a stated
time period of 2 months. Only when that time has expired can the executor then
distribute the estate and dismiss any late claims from creditors.)

(*This is applicable before the assets are distributed)

It is interesting what you posted. I note it says that the claims are against the estate but then it also says that the claim can be against the beneficiary or executor. Claims are against the estate unless the executor withholds information when DWP request the information within 28 days of being requested to do so: s.126, SSAA 1992. It is not a debt unless those section 71 circumstances are satisfied so there is no obligation for Avon C to provide the bank statements as the document also indicates as it cannot force banking institutions as the bank is not a creditor. In addition DWP is not a creditor and the executor or beneficiary is not debtor unless DWP proves the debt, which is all together different to a debtor who absolutely owes money to his creditors and therefore there are obligations: s.25 (as amended), Administration of Estates' Act 1971. The statute's section ie SSAA 1992 at section 71 very carefully words its terms because Parliament knew full well that there could be no legal obligation/ right to force an executor or beneficiary to hand over the deceased's bank accounts. They also know that when consent is not given so Parliament has bound the courts and the government from doing this...unless the executor/ beneficiary were to foolishly 'consent.'

[charitynjw]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

It is interesting what you posted. I note it says that the claims are against the estate but then it also says that the claim can be against the beneficiary or executor. Claims are against the estate unless the executor withholds information when DWP request the information within 28 days of being requested to do so: s.126, SSAA 1992. It is not a debt unless those section 71 circumstances are satisfied so there is no obligation for Avon C to provide the bank statements as the document also indicates as it cannot force banking institutions as the bank is not a creditor. In addition DWP is not a creditor and the executor or beneficiary is not debtor unless DWP proves the debt, which is all together different to a debtor who absolutely owes money to his creditors and therefore there are obligations: s.25 (as amended), Administration of Estates' Act 1971. The statute's section ie SSAA 1992 at section 71 very carefully words its terms because Parliament knew full well that there could be no legal obligation/ right to force an executor or beneficiary to hand over the deceased's bank accounts. They also know that when consent is not given so Parliament has bound the courts and the government from doing this...unless the executor/ beneficiary were to foolishly 'consent.'

Imho, an executor who does his/her best to honour the deceased's wishes should not be put in the frame (unless they act fraudulently, etc)

Unfortunately, it is not my opinion that matters.

It would appear that our DWP will go to any lengths* to try & recover money which they think may be owing to them.

*Even to chase folk in Canada
http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...ght=DWP+Canada

[AVON C]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

It might be of interest to know that I phoned the DWP Debt Collection Department yesterday. This was because I was getting so stressed about the flurry of letters from them.

I asked the operative (box ticker?) what the claim is all about and I also require a break down of their calculations.

I was told that there is no claim at the moment, they just need to know about Mums bank accounts in case they have" overpaid her pension credit for the past 12 years."

I told her that there was nothing in the bank account as the residue had been distributed to the beneficiaries.

Also that in any case the DWP were the ones that assessed my Mums position in the first place and they were the people who decided what her award was to be. So what has changed?

She told me that it was their job to ensure that the figures that the Probate Court supplied them with was a total amount of the estate and that they (DWP) now needed a breakdown. They send out hundreds of letters as a matter of course.

I told her that I felt harassed by their letters and am furious as I am still mourning the loss of my Mum who died three month ago

Especially as:

"Probate was granted on 1st Feb 2016
all creditors were paid and the residue was distributed on the 10th Feb 2016. The DWP letters started arriving at the end of Feb

In any event, I was not executor but the personal representative of the beneficiary."

Her reply was- "OK, you have told me that the estate was cash in the Bank, so you will probably receive another letter from us confirming that there is no claim against the estate"

When I asked her why they had not examined Mum's Bank accounts themselves, she told me that they were legally unable to and had to ask the executor/personal rep. for this information

I am very sceptical about the way this department is operated and feel sorry for others who are subjected to this type of bullying.

[enaid]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

Avon the DWP are the worst imo , their letters and attitude when folks are grieving is awful.
It is usually a phishing letter that is received by lots of people and usually about pension credit. We have to remember there is fraud out there and suppose they are doing a job, but it is an awful time to have to deal with this stuff. It is the probate dept that informs them, then the robot mode kicks in.
Do not let it go about the letter you were promised about this being sorted,they so often tell youwhat you want to hear and then forget it.

[AVON C]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

Never fear, I will take it higher if I have to. By the way, I asked her if the conversation was being recorded. When she confirmed that it was, I said I was pleased to be on record to be able to point out how upsetting their procedures are and.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

It might be of interest to know that I phoned the DWP Debt Collection Department yesterday. This was because I was getting so stressed about the flurry of letters from them.

I asked the operative (box ticker?) what the claim is all about and I also require a break down of their calculations.

I was told that there is no claim at the moment, they just need to know about Mums bank accounts in case they have" overpaid her pension credit for the past 12 years."

I told her that there was nothing in the bank account as the residue had been distributed to the beneficiaries.

Also that in any case the DWP were the ones that assessed my Mums position in the first place and they were the people who decided what her award was to be. So what has changed?

She told me that it was their job to ensure that the figures that the Probate Court supplied them with was a total amount of the estate and that they (DWP) now needed a breakdown. They send out hundreds of letters as a matter of course.

I told her that I felt harassed by their letters and am furious as I am still mourning the loss of my Mum who died three month ago

Especially as:

"Probate was granted on 1st Feb 2016
all creditors were paid and the residue was distributed on the 10th Feb 2016. The DWP letters started arriving at the end of Feb

In any event, I was not executor but the personal representative of the beneficiary."

Her reply was- "OK, you have told me that the estate was cash in the Bank, so you will probably receive another letter from us confirming that there is no claim against the estate"

When I asked her why they had not examined Mum's Bank accounts themselves, she told me that they were legally unable to and had to ask the executor/personal rep. for this information

I am very sceptical about the way this department is operated and feel sorry for others who are subjected to this type of bullying.

They need the executor's permission legally to access the deceased's bank accounts and the pond-life DWP know this. If you refuse there is nothing they can do. Am sorry that you have to go through this garbage. This controversial law came from a Tory government in the 1990s...but the executor having to inform DWP of estate's debts owed to it has just manipulated existing Trustee Act 1925 and Administration of Estate's Act 1971 to suit DWP. So DWP only had that power either some 22 yrs later (based on 1971 Act) or some 67 years later (based on1925 Act).

[AVON C]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

Thank you Openlaw15.

What a shower they are. My Mother would be horrified to know that I have been made to jump through hoops. Thank goodness I am a fighter.

[enaid]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

The root of this evil imho is the pension credit. Although with good intention and set up to make sure pensioners are on a decent income and can survive, the do gooders who set up this benefit (social workers, CAB and carers etc) are often not given the full financial facts probably not intentionally but because the old dears they are trying to help have no clue as to what's coming in or what capital they have.
I know this as fact through my own parents as when mum was alive they were claiming pension credit as a couple, set up by the CAB. I knew full well my mum would never have told a stranger everything as she had no idea what my dad had lol (yes it was the norm in their generation to live together and have separate finances).
When mum passed and I helped dad, I was relieved he was no longer due pension credit because of his capital,it meant I didnt have to go through what you and many others go through eventually.
Bearing in mind the assessment periods and how lapse they are with the actual assessments they should really be delving into their own paperwork before they ever contact relatives of a recently deceased person.
Just my opinion and my little moan, rant over lol
Enaid x

[AVON C]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

Well said Enaid. Rant welcomed, I have been ranting for weeks now!:duh:

[AVON C]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

All quiet for a week and now received another letter from the dreaded DWP. I have told them repeatedly that there were no assets other than what Mum had in her savings which were accumulated over the years from her Pension Credit. They are still demanding copies of bank statements etc. I am attaching part of their latest letter.
I have informed them that as far as I am concerned I have discharged my duties as Personal Representative for my Brother (as stated on the PROBATE) and distributed the residue of the estate to the beneficiaries .

How can I get the The DWP off my back? Please help, this is driving me nutty.

[Brian Rawlinson]

Re: DWP : Claim against Estate.

I am still dealing with my fathers estate following his death in 2014. It complicated and sorry for the length of this post. I did not know my father he left my mum and me in germany when he was serving over there. He never attempted to contact me in over 40 yrs. I did meet him once and it was a nightmare. I next heard about him when he sadly passed away. Consequently his brother contacted me and told me following his death i was a benficiary to my late uncles estate. This lead to another estate that i was a benificiary of. My father was not aware of any estates that he was a beneficiary to. He was penniless wearing glasses with only one lense and claimed pension credits. The DWP are now requesting that his estate pays back £16,000 from 2004. I have proof that my grandmothers will states he would be entitled to a quarter share if he appeared. She states that he had not been seen for 12yrs but also states that it is at the trustees descretion and that they are not obliged to try and find him. They told me that they did look for him but to no avail. The trustees then placed his share in trust for which is now part of the estate funds.
Have the DWP got a case if at the time of claiming my father had a valid claim as he was not receiving any income and did not have any savings?
Sorry for the lengthy post