When does probate begin is it before or after death?

[Dixie]

Hi I'm new here and please can someone advise me over a dispute I am having with the other executor to our mum's will since her death this February? Mum was in and out of hospital over last year and her last stint lasted 6 months before she passed away in February this year. I am having trouble with the elder brother over the money mum asked me to take out for her from her two accounts with her cards and had me put my name on her account to make it a joint account The money I drew out with her cards over the last nine months she asked me to do each week to make sure the boys and family had some to save them from losing their livelihoods by using it to help them and myself out and also to pay for the things (by my brother's calculations) to £17,000 over the course of the year, but what he is saying is that we, my other two brothers and I were spending his 'inheritance' and wants us to pay this back telling us to say they were loans when they were not. Mum stated that she did not want us to pay any of it back although we had offered with the larger amounts. £2,500 for a new boiler I couldn't afford and nearly £7,000 went to my younger brother whose work van blew up. We know her estate is valued well under the threshold at around £190,000 including her assets, the house, her small shares and isa savings and has never been over it. He has told me I have broken the law by putting my name on her account (I think its gone on her savings account but not sure) and by using her cards to draw this money out, but it was her wishes and her money. She may have suffered with her bowel problems but she was never out of her right mind and was mentally with it and strong minded right until the end. I am so worried that he is holding all of the paperwork and I have nothing except a copy of her will and I am the eldest child and also the other executor to her will. All four of us 'children' are beneficiaries to her estate. What I want to know is when does inheritance become inheritance, is it before or after death and is he correct in what he is telling me, even though it was my mum's wishes to carry on in hospital for her as she always had done outside? My brother hadn't been in contact with mum for seven years until the few weeks before she died and I have been her main carer since she became ill. Thank you for your anticipated replies. Dixie

[enaid]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Hello Dixie and welcome to Beagles, I am sorry about your loss and as it has recently happened to me and a few others on the forum we do know what you are going through.
Firstly please have a read of the info here http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=21132 it explains all about probate.

Was there a will?
Who are the executors?

Here is the information about joint accounts after someone has died

Money in joint accounts

The deceased person may have held money with another person in a joint bank or building society account. Normally this means that the surviving joint owner automatically owns the money. The money does not form part of the deceased person's estate for the purpose of administration and therefore does not need to be dealt with by the executor or administrator. However, a deceased's person's share in joint property is treated as part of their estate for inheritance tax purposes, both on death and on gifts made during their lifetime.

I hope this helps for now and when you have read about probate etc please post again any questions you have. If we take this step by step it will be a lot easier and clearer for all concerned.
Enaid x

[Dixie]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Hi Nelly enaid?

Sorry If I have your name wrong. Not sure how all this works yet. I do not have any idea of the account my name was added to and the copy of the form mum and I filled in and signed was given over to my brother the other Executor so today I am going into the Abbey (Santander) to try to find out what I had added my name to. Many thanks for your help and yes, I had already seen the message board about Probate. What I really wanted to find out is does inheritance of mum's estate start at her death or before it (as my brother seems to think it does to want his share of his inheritance back and wants us to admit to these withdrawals from her account being 'loans'). I have been under the impression that before mum died her money and estate were her own, to do with as she wished and not us kids! She asked me to do this and to draw her money out on a regular basis for her as she couldn't being stuck in hospital since August until the date of her death in February. I am so sorry for your losses too as I would not wish this hassle on anyone! I will be in touch again, no doubt. thanks again, Dixie xx

[Amy]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

My brother hadn't been in contact with mum for seven years until the few weeks before she died ...

This is the most telling part of your post and from this, it is fairly evident what he is after.

He cannot prove what the money was used for and he probably cannot even be sure how much was given to you and your other siblings by your mother before her death - unless you tell him.

What does he propose to do, contest the will?

[enaid]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Yes of course the money was her own until she died, the money in the joint account you had with her should be yours now.
If you are executors then there would be a will, as you are administers if there isn't one.
Has probate been applied for and granted?

[Sapphire]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Hiya

I hope you don't mind but I'm going to section you're query off and hopefully it will make it easier to address your questions.

Hi I'm new here and please can someone advise me over a dispute I am having with the other executor to our mum's will since her death this February? Who is the other executor and have you visited a solicitor?

Mum was in and out of hospital over last year and her last stint lasted 6 months before she passed away in February this year. I am having trouble with the elder brother over the money mum asked me to take out for her from her two accounts with her cards and had me put my name on her account to make it a joint account The money I drew out with her cards over the last nine months she asked me to do each week to make sure the boys and family had some to save them from losing their livelihoods by using it to help them and myself out and also to pay for the things (by my brother's calculations) to £17,000 over the course of the year, So basically what you are saying is that your mum gave your permission to draw out money to pay your bills, living expenses etc whilst she was ill and you were going back and forth visiting and such ?

but what he is saying is that we, my other two brothers and I were spending his 'inheritance' and wants us to pay this back telling us to say they were loans when they were not. Mum stated that she did not want us to pay any of it back although we had offered with the larger amounts. £2,500 for a new boiler I couldn't afford and nearly £7,000 went to my younger brother whose work van blew up. Did you keep receipts ?

We know her estate is valued well under the threshold at around £190,000 including her assets, the house, her small shares and isa savings and has never been over it. Yes thats well under the threshold.

He has told me I have broken the law by putting my name on her account (I think its gone on her savings account but not sure) and by using her cards to draw this money out, but it was her wishes and her money. I assume she was with you when the account was made joint and that she signed an agreement of sorts at the bank/building society. My mum did the same with me and if it were in anyway illegal the bank/building society would not have allowed it, so I personally believe you're brother is completely wrong with that one.

She may have suffered with her bowel problems but she was never out of her right mind and was mentally with it and strong minded right until the end. I am so worried that he is holding all of the paperwork and I have nothing except a copy of her will and I am the eldest child and also the other executor to her will. All four of us 'children' are beneficiaries to her estate. What I want to know is when does inheritance become inheritance, is it before or after death and is he correct in what he is telling me, even though it was my mum's wishes to carry on in hospital for her as she always had done outside? Ok I take it the other executor is you're brother and he's holding the paperwork is that right ? Basically its my belief that 'intheritance' becomes inheritance after the person has passed away.

My brother hadn't been in contact with mum for seven years until the few weeks before she died and I have been her main carer since she became ill. Thank you for your anticipated replies. Dixie

You should visit a solicitor, you can get a free visit in most of them, I believe the solicitor will be able to force your brother to hand over the relevant paperwork and you can proceed with the dispersal of the estate according to your mums wishes in her will.

If you are still on speaking terms with your brother I'd inform him that you are seeking legal advice, he may well back off and hand over the paperwork anyway and you can then go forward.


The only other thing that could happen is that your brother could actually contest the will which could become very costly if lawyers get involved, I'd suggest if you can all come to some kind of an agreement you will all be better off in the long run, but as it stands as long as you're mum was in her right mind at the time she was well within her rights to give her money to whoever she wanted and your brother cannot do a thing about it.

[Dixie]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Hi again, Oh my, thank you all so much for your replies! I am quite overwhelmed by them all. To answer your questions to me I respond thus:

1. I am the other Executrix(?) being the eldest of four; my elder brother is the other Executor, all four of us are beneficiaries or will be) and yes there is a Will and my Executor brother is holding all the paperwork at present, which I handed over as soon as mum died and we spent one day together at his house going through the receipts I had given him for the withdrawals I made on behalf of our hospitalized mum before she passed away. No I haven't seen a solicitor yet but I do work for one in conveyancing. She's off sick at the moment but I will ask her on her return.

2. Yes, mum gave me permission to draw money out for her and gave her two account cards to me to withdraw funds as she directed each time I left her, to be used for her extra's in hospital and between the family as and when we all needed it.

3. I handed over till receipts (I was short on around four as the wall till didn't give me any on those occasions) and he has all mum's bank statements showing these anyway, including the latest statement for the ISA which comes out once a year apparently.

4. Mum and me did go into her Abbey Nat bank before she went into hospital again in August, but was too ill to stay to fill in forms, the lady there told me I didn't need a Power of Attorney as that would be expensive and mum wasn't without her mental faculties, but just to put my name on her account. I went back later two or so months before she died to have my name put on her account, they gave me the relevant forms and mum and I both filled it in together in hospital, she signed her part and I mine and I took it back to the bank and they photocopied a copy for me. I have been back there today and they can find no trace of it or me on any account!My brother has my only copy and the bank would like to see it. The told me today I hadn't done anything illegal as my mother had told me to draw her money out and plenty of people do this. I am so relieved! I do have the receipt somewhere for my boiler and that was paid on my mother's cheque account at the Alliance and Leicester. I have no idea at this time about my younger brother's van but I guess he has got one too.

5. Yes my Executor brother is holding all the paperwork and on the 25 Feb after mum's funeral he told me at the wake that I had nothing to worry about it had all been paid for and I asked if I could take the paperwork whilst he was away because he was flying off to Australia for three weeks the day after (26th Feb) and he sidestepped saying it was all safe and locked up and we'd get things moving when he came back. Well, this spreadsheet has now arrived with all the outgoings on it and he wants me to explain where the money has gone. I really don't know as mum lived in there for six months and I was providing her with other daily items out of this money and even I cannot account for it all. I want him to understand that it was mum's money and not our own, but at the moment he is bullying my other two brothers into admitting it was loans when I know my mum didn't say anything of the sort to me. I want to put on the HM IHT2005 form that it was gifted not loaned. He just wants what he feels is his inheritance that he feels we have spent this £17,000 and he wants his share. We are still speaking at the moment, but I am very hurt that I feel he doesn't trust or believe me over this. I feel very strained at the moment and my younger brother today has told him he will pay it back and I know he's been bullied into doing this because out of us all he is self-employed and without work very much needing probate to go through. Hope this is a clearer picture now for you all, thank you very much once again! Dixie xx
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Hi again Nelly, Thank you for your reply. No Probate hasn't happened yet we cannot get past his wanting to know where this £17,000 is. Not all of her savings I might add! I do not appear by the Bank to be on her account anyway, the told me today (see my response above to Sapphire) and I wouldn't have claimed it as mine in any event. I want to be fair and just - it wasn't my money in there, but mum's - I only wanted to be on her account to make my life easier for withdrawing it out for her. None of us expected her to die but her second operation went wrong and she died basically of peritonitis. We are trying between us as Executrix and Executor to fill in the HM Revenue & Customs IHT205 form and he wants me and my other two beneficiaries (brothers) to say they were loans and not gifts. Dixie xx
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Hi Amy, thank you too for your input. Yes its a sad case when someone doesn't keep in touch until there's money involved. He disappeared in 2003 after dad passed away and hadn't been to see mum at all in seven years. His loss I feel. But at least he did come in the end - at the end. I have no idea if he is going to contest it, but he keeps telling me he isn't happy about this amount that had come out of her account and I know he holds me responsible. Yes, I did withdraw it in £250 and £300 lots but that it what mum always did and wanted me to continue to do during her long stay in hospital when she was unable to go out to do it for herself and gave me permission to do this on her behalf. I am a very honest person and I have told him Amy, and everyone else knew I was doing this with mum's permission and her cards because it was everyone she was helping via me! I was following her verbal orders and she ruled the roost from her bed. We are all in our 40's and 50's although at the moment you'd think we were our shoe sizes! But I am trying to keep my two younger brothers from fighting with the older brother and I am in the middle. Not an easy place to be but I just needed to know what laws I may have broken unwittingly. I don't intend to lie as I haven't up until now and I know mum didn't say to me they were loans - what she said was 'these are the rainy days and you all need it now not when I am gone'. (during the last year she was in and out of hospital three times and the last she stayed in 6 months up until her death the day before her 82nd birthday). My elder brother has a very business orientated way and I am a compassionate person who just wants her mum back. I shall be 60 next year and I don't want to be dealing with this kind of hostility over bloody money. Dixie xx

[Amy]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Dixie, you are beating yourself up for no reason.

From what you have said above you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Your Mother gifted you the money and there is not a damn thing your brother can do to prove otherwise, so try not to be so hard on yourself.

[enaid]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

I agree with Amy, although I know it's easier said than done as it's a sad time anyway and this is only making things worse for you.
You need to get Probate granted, if there's more than one executor it's common to agree that one will apply for the grant and sort out the will. However up to four executors can apply jointly and sort out everything together.The application which is lodged at a Probate Registry together with the relevant fee will usually result in a Grant of Probate or Letters of Administration being issued however in both cases where there is no solicitor involved it will be necessary for the proposed executor/administrator to attend for interview with one of the court officers. The purpose of this interview is to confirm the details and to deal with any queries. The interview is informal and can be held at either a Probate Registry or at one of the smaller local offices. Thereafter the grant is issued giving full authority to the applicant to deal with the estate in accordance with the terms of the will.
So I would fill in the forms as best you can and at the interview get any of the problems you have sorted there. This is if you are doing it on your own and not using a solicitor.

[Dixie]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Thank you all once again, but the problem isn't going away. My other Executor brother wont sign the probate form because he wants me to say it was loans payable to the Estate, the money I took out from her accounts. Bearing in mind that the estate does not and has never exceeded the threshhold for inheritance tax, nowhere near it, he wants this money accounted for for the TAX MAN and he'd have to go back over the last 7 years before mum died to see what else she had given away to the family, of which he was not included as he wasn't around. I have no idea what mum did to help the family out, nor what, if any help, she gave me during this seven year time period. But if we do say it's gifted we have to then fill in the IHT400 Form instead of the IHT205 and he said he'll just drag his feet if I decide it was gifts and sit on it and it could go on indefinitely. He's also told my younger brother that he wants to remove me from the process because I am not trustworthy!

Basically, he's not happy and flatly refuses to sign the probate form, without me accounting for all the money I took out for and on behalf of mum. No, I never kept many receipts for things, I kept only the cash point receipts, I never give it a thought to keep receipts and those that I did present to mum when I bought her clothes etc.,she just threw away. So it's my word against his I am afraid. Even her Bank cannot find a trace of the form mum and I filled in and I took back to them. He also let slip last night that he'd given this form (my copy) back to the bank when he first went to them to pay off mum's funeral expenses from her account with them So someone is lying. regards Dixie x

[enaid]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Firstly if you had a joint account with your mum, (both of your names on the account) and not just using your mums card to draw money from the atm. If this is the case then please read this that I posted for you earlier on

The deceased person may have held money with another person in a joint bank or building society account. Normally this means that the surviving joint owner automatically owns the money. The money does not form part of the deceased person's estate for the purpose of administration and therefore does not need to be dealt with by the executor or administrator. However, a deceased's person's share in joint property is treated as part of their estate for inheritance tax purposes, both on death and on gifts made during their lifetime.
I really don't think if it was a joint account things could be made any clearer for your borother.
Enaid x

[Amy]

Re: When does probate begin is it before or after death?

Have you read this thread? Could someone please explain the use of a citation to 'motivate' an executor - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum