hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and utility

[witch1]

As this is a long winded tale,I'm not sure where topost this,but am in a battle with Yorkshire water and bmdc r.e. a building.Have got to the the stage where the LGO is investigating but YW say no deal. Would be very grateful if someone could PM me and I will give you the full sorry story, thankyou in advance,t'old witch.:cry:

[Tools]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

Hi Witch,

It would be better if you could post the full story here, minus any personal details such as your name or address.

[witch1]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

no problem tools, here goes will try and make it as short and sweet as poss.
When we bought our house 13 yrs ago, we were aware of a large sewer(10ft) running alongside our house at the side,and leading up to the front of the house and across the road etc etc.
We were told we would not be able to build over the sewer,but as we bought the house from family we were aware of this and it did not concern us.
I should state at this point that at the bottom of the house is a canal.
In June of this year we received a visit from a council officer who wanted to talk to us about the sewer.
Our neighbours had recently sold and the new neighbour wanted the sewer moving.She was told that this was not possible,and she said she did not like it and would build over it,again told it was not possible,law states no building within 3 metres of a sewer.We told the officer we had not had any trouble with the sewer and it was left at that.
In october my neighbour commenced work on an extension over the sewer.
I questioned this with the council involved,and they informed us that they did not have to mention the planning to neighbours as the building regs and plans had been passed under permitted development,and they could not legally recind the plans.
The LGO are currently investigating this matter for me, as on the application form for the plans the contractor have omitted the fact of the sewer and the canal...the council have accepted their explanation "It was a mistake"
I informed the water authority who could not understand why they had'nt been asked as part of building regs about the plans........council's response was "the map does not show a sewer..your fault..deal with it"
The water company then wrote to me to say after discussion with their legal team an injunction would be sought to stop the build.
The extension continued.
No discussion with us,no boundary wall agreement etc etc.
After numerous attempts to contact them I eventually got a message (voicemail) to say the build would be allowed,don't bother applying for an extension yourselves as full access to the sewer is now through your property.
I filed a complaint and sent it to CCW and OFWAT as well, and the reply from the water company is as follows;
What happened was our record did not show there was a sewer there,although clearly someone did know.I can't explain to you how that someone knew it was there but we did'nt.
when you contacted us we did a survey and found the sewer there.
we looked to see if an injunction could be taken out and by then the foundations had been laid, so we spoke to the developer and decided the build had progressed to far.
Should we need acces to the sewer it will be through both properties as the deeds show.
Our decision to stop the build at this stage would be inappropriate.
All of the above is word for word from the letter!!!!
Now the sewer has been there since the houses were built (1970's)

If they had sought advice from the water company prior to the build they would have refused permission to build We have this in writing and confirmed to us by an employee who stated that they had told our neighbour on no less than twelve occassions that permission to build would be refused.Interestingly enough the very helpful employee in formed us that he had, had to leave the company,shortly after the injunction was applied for.

A bridging agreement could have been entered into allowing both properties to build,but we were told this was not negotiable.

So in effect whist there has been value added next door, by being honest value will go down on our property due to the fact I cannot see how they will gain access through a build on their side.
I hope this summarises the case for you,I have not replied to the last letter yet (received on thursday) but most certainly want to. Thankyou in advance witchy.

[Celestine]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

"I questioned this with the council involved,and they informed us that they did not have to mention the planning to neighbours as the building regs and plans had been passed under permitted development,and they could not legally recind the plans."

Lot's of sneaky things happen under Permitted Development, without seemingly, any knowledge of the planning team. It's a serious weakness in many LA's

Since there was no involvement, rightly or wrongly, from Council Planning, and Building Control only deals with safety and building construction matters, not rights to exist, you will probably have no legitimate battle with the Council.

If the owner chose to ignore the water company and they seemingly gave a good bash at stopping it, but realised they could have a costly battle on their hands, you may have to lay the blame solely at the door of your neighbour; who has been extremely lucky in this process.

Tricky one.....

[witch1]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

I wondered how best to reply to the water company as now I have it in writing access is through both houses,and will take them at their word.
Am amazed that a water company would not take out an injunction(about £3000.00) but would be prepared to demolish a build or at least try to if access needed.
Have also been met with amazement from neighbours who have had plans turned down when one of them was 10 metres away from the sewer.
Building regs did come and pay a site visit and told the contractor to mend our fence which they did.
There are two district councillors aware of this and have also paid a vist and said they were astonished it had been passed,but again building plans could not be recinded once passed even though new info had come to light which would dispute earlier application.
I am flabbergasted that no-one is accountable for the original mistakes..i.e this property is not within 10 metres of any water/sewer etc....the canal is closer than that!!

[catinahat]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

Hi there,
not sure if I can help, but am happy to try as I have a friend who is a builder and frequently deals with these issues and is even on first name terms with one of the building reg inspectors (he was 'old school trained ie full spectrum apprenticeship-time served etc) so the inspector is always happy with his work...:-) anyway, if you could give me a brief outline as to yr situ, I can seek my friends advice on your behalf? Sometimes helps to get advice of someone with working first hand experience, in additional to professional guidance with specifics of legalities of course... If you prefer to PM will see wot I can find out? Best wishes, CatXXX

[scoobydoo]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

I am wondering if there is anyway you could get other evidence that the water board did know the sewer was there. Are your two houses the only houses it affects?

I had a right run in with Thames water when we moved here in respect of mains drainage and sewage pipes - they were useless - mainly because "maps" etc had not been updated. They were absolutely useless and like your case just blamed it all on bad record keeping but would not admit they were in the wrong.

[witch1]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

thankyou for the advice both of you,Cat the situation is as above basically.
Scooby,when we were first in touch with the water company they said they could not understand why the council map did not show the sewer,as it was on their map and they both used the same one.We also knew it was there from when we first bought the house, from the survey.
Strangely it was only after we complained we received the reply above which is contrary to their initial response.

The sewer serves shed loads of houses,which is why neighbours were refused permission to build, even though they were 10ft away from it.

The water company said that had the building regs been passed to them they would have refused permission to build...the building regs were passed BEFORE the plans accepted and when I queried this course of action they said it was quicker this way and the map did not show a sewer or any water.(not even the canal oddly!!) so they did not need to pass it on to any utility company.

My points of concern are that the application stated the building was not near any water (a mistake)
was not near a sewer or drain ( a mistake)

neither the householder or contractor or designer was aware of the sewer (a mistake)
My post above proves differently and yet nobody is accountable, it has been accepted, and I feel as though this is not justice to myself or any other householder that has had plans refused.

I am also concerned that now the building is finished and I have photographic evidence that the foundations were built on top of the sewer ( the concrete supporting wall was demolished and concrete poured on top) damage may have occured and i'm pretty sure they will go through my garden to fix things, I cannot see them knocking an extension down.

When I offerred the pictures to the water company as evidence (building regs also took pictures, that's when the contractors dug up my fence) they refused it saying it was biased.

As for a boundary wall agreement, what is the point? I was told that was up to me to ask the builders for one.it was not a legal requirement.

thankyou both again for your responses....this certainly is a tricky problem,but if anyone fancies a challenge???????!!!!!!!!

[Main man]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

We lived in a house that was built over an old Victorian sewer that collapsed many years ago, knowing the battle over reinstatement costs (some £30K and this was back in the 80's) I would not like to be in your neighbours shoes should any collapse happen.

I think your neighbours could have made a costly mistake in proceeding with this extension, not only could they have undermined the structure of the sewer they will have more than likely significantly devalued the re sale value of their house.

[witch1]

Re: hi all! any help or advice needed plese regarding building regs,councils and util

:beagle:There is always the possibility of it collapsing and at least on that note the water company have said We will NOT be liable for any repairs...however we would propbaly lose alot of the garden as the sewer runs down the boundary ( their half now covered by an extension) BUT they would not be responsible for my repairs either.

I queried this with my house insurance providers and they have said they will not be liable to pay out if any damage occurs as the building works should not have taken place.

The only option would seem if this occurs would be to sue the householder.

The water company have also told me they will NOT pass plans retrospectively,so if they chose to sell their house it would for all intents and purposes be unsaleable and uninsurable.

I cannot believe someone would want to take those risks.

The only consolation to all this is I have made people sit up and take notice,the leader of the council has promised to take this to the house for a change in the laws.Pity the poor contractor however,because I fear every plan he submits now will be investigated thrice over before it is considered,hope this was worth it for him.

The local government ombudsman has taken on the case and assigned an investigator to interview all parties,review all paperwork and correspondance and will also pay a site visit,so at least i will have given them a rough ride.
The grounds on their investigation are,
did the council make a mistake? and did this mistake affect me?
did the council correctly follow it's own rules or the law?
did they make a decision in the wrong way? i.e by not taking in all relevant information.
Have I suffered trouble or inconvenience because of their decision?


The council were aware of the sewer from their visit earlier in the year,and the neighbours numerous complaints to them about it.