Assured Short Hold Tenancy Agreement and section 21

[Velox59]

Which forum does this sit in. I’ve done some searches but not seen anything the same, maybe my searching parameters are not correct.

The situation is Landlord claims daughter owes her rent arrears. She was in a HMO with 3 others. There were problems between them including mental illness with my daughter, losing her job etc.
They were in a 12 month Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement all named separately. There was a lot of friction and between the lines landlord wanted rid of my daughter/all of them. One tenant moved out when landlord said they were going to sell.
Another tenant agreed to move out. My daughter and the other tenant were served section 21 notices to quit.
The other tenant did leave but my daughter did not as this would render her voluntarily homeless with no income (Shelter advice says the same). She was eventually hospitalised due to her illness.
She improved and agreed to leaving the HMO when support accommodation was found for her through social services.
We moved her things out and then the landlord sent me a bill of nearly £5k for rent arrears which built up after the others moved out and she was in hospital.
Her part of the rent ie a quarter was being paid by universal credit and was until she left.

Landlords demand is exaggerated and they exacerbated her illness and the friction a difficult situation without doubt. Landlord has not taken any court action but asked “us” to make her an offer – (we are not guarantees).

Just some advice on how to proceed and which forum (been getting amazing assistance from LB in another area already).

[atticus]

Welcome to LB.

First of all, as I read your post, this is not, or is no longer, about s21 (of the Housing Act 1988). Your daughter has moved out of the property in question.

The landlord appears to be making a claim for unpaid rent. Is the bill addressed to you, i.e. is he seeking payment from you? If so, his entitlement to do that is not clear, You say that you are not a guarantor of your daughter's liabilities. You can make that point to the landlord. It seems that the landlord may be hoping to pressurise you into paying something, even though on what you say you are not legally liable.

If the claim is in fact against your daughter, then the question is, on what basis? You need to look at the tenancy agreement. What is her obligation? Did she agree to pay just her 'share' of the rent, or - as often happens - did she and the other tenants agree to be jointly and severally liable for the full rent for the whole property? In the latter event, then the other tenants are also jointly and severally liable with your daughter.

Advice on how to proceed: first of all evaluate the likelihood of any action against your daughter and what you will be prepared to do to help/protect her. That will guide you as to whether you politely decline the landlord's request or do something else.



EDITED TO ADD: some of the background can be found in this long post - https://legalbeagles.info/forums/for...72#post1714472

[Velox59]

Thankyou for your response been penning something together her goes –

First of all, as I read your post, this is not, or is no longer, about s21 (of the Housing Act 1988). Your daughter has moved out of the property in question.
Yes she moved out of the property on 26^th July 2024.
Section 21 was served on 21/03/24 – to quit by 22^nd May 2024.
12 month contract was due to end 14^th July 2024.

The landlord appears to be making a claim for unpaid rent. Is the bill addressed to you, i.e. is he seeking payment from you?
No – the bill is in the form of a Google doc of her workings out was emailed to me 1^st August 2024. Daughter did not have capacity at that time to deal with very much at all.
As parents (divorced) we had been estranged since 2020 with our daughter due to ups and downs with this illness.
Daughter had reached out to Mum early 2024 it was rocky, Behind the scenes I spoke to landlord, and local MH intervention team. We did what I could to help out and keep the peace.

After she was hospitalised sorted out all utility bills, paid what she had been left with…. CTAX lead to 4 Magistrates summons in error. We moved her things out etc – as you do
Daughter is now in Mental Health Breathing Space (MHBS), this and all debts have been logged and creditors written to, including landlord, not to contact daughter.
However, I have been using this time (and prior to it coming into place) to try and resolve her debts. MHBS agrees with us using this time to resolve matters.

There are now only 3 main creditors left to resolve and the landlord is one and the biggest demand. I/we would like to clear this before breathing space ends understandably.
Landlord – sees us I feel as a source of money and knows our desire to clear the slate. Feins concern for daughters welfare but this is about money.

If so, his entitlement to do that is not clear, You say that you are not a guarantor of your daughter's liabilities. You can make that point to the landlord. It seems that the landlord may be hoping to pressurise you into paying something, even though on what you say you are not legally liable.

Yes that’s about it in a nutshell no we are not liable we weren’t even on the scene when the contract was signed.

If the claim is in fact against your daughter, then the question is, on what basis? You need to look at the tenancy agreement. What is her obligation? Did she agree to pay just her 'share' of the rent, or - as often happens - did she and the other tenants agree to be jointly and severally liable for the full rent for the whole property? In the latter event, then the other tenants are also jointly and severally liable with your daughter.

My understanding is this is the latter contract (ive cut and past the first few pages and attached).
Shelter seemed to think that was the case.

My question is how a court would see this if landlord wanted to take daughter to court.
Landlord states intention to sell the house/HMO.
Tenants not getting on, one is suffering what we now know to be psychosis.
Mid March 2024 – first tenant moves out I don’t believe she was required to pay any rent or monies to end of contract – landlord said she was selling anyway.
Daughter and one tenant served the section 21.
Mid May 2024 second tenant moved out again before the end of the contract no penalty.
25^th Many 2024 third tenant moved out (the other served section 21).
Daughter refused to move out, barricaded herself in the property – paranoia playing its part not just being awkward.

12^th June 2024 – MH intervention attend address after numerous attempts for her to engage in the days leading up by making visits. Attend with the police and locksmith secure entry. She is assessed and detained under section 2 MHA. Initially for 28 days.




Advice on how to proceed: first of all evaluate the likelihood of any action against your daughter and what you will be prepared to do to help/protect her. That will guide you as to whether you politely decline the landlord's request or do something else.

When landlord served the section 21 on the daughter ex told me about it as she saw the letter on a visit. I tracked down the landlord we spoke on the phone, I did feel for her situation.
She seemed to think we had control in persuading daughter to move out there was a lot of pressure. Landlord did not understand the situation, family were trying to build a relationship after nearly 4 yrs not destroy it by telling daughter what to do would drive her underground, back on the streets with a MH illness.
I said landlord needed to go to a solicitor and begin proceedings to evict my daughter (advice and what I read) Landlord did not I don’t think she wanted to spend the money and it would take to long, I think.
I think that is the same now (but you never know).

1. Daughter is on Universal Credit has some part time work but not got £4,900 for alleged rent arrears.
2. Her care team have got her good, safe accommodation – she has all her bills now.
3. Only just got driving again after 18 months due to illness (licence restrictions of course)
4. Debt is a trigger to poor MH we would never let debt drag her down and neither would she or her care coordinator but we are not a push over especially as some of landlord’s actions made this problem far worse. There are things she did behind the scenes that were very manipulative and heartless.
5. As her capacity got better, she learnt to trust us more and agreed to help her move out on 26^th July 2024 (12 days after the contract was due to end). The doctors let her go with us to do that, it was great progress all round and landlord had her property back.
6. Universal Credit was paying daughters £440 share of rent each month, after she lost her job. We did not have power of attorney for daughter (I did look into it re capacity but things moved so quickly).

So Universal Credit would not talk to us and I doubt would ever have paid the full £1760 pcm for the rent when she was the last one there. Notwithstanding she was detained in hospital after the 12^th June 2024 anyway.

With our knowledge because we were in communication with the landlord after the section 21 was served. On 26^th May 2024 landlord emailed daughter and said if she quit (as the others had) by 6^th June 2024 then she would not ask for any other monies to cover the rent. Of course, that never happened because she would not leave.
When I spoke to the landlord about 3 weeks ago now I asked her to consider writing off this claim for rent arrears as she had said back then.
She said that’s long past, said again you/we make her an offer and proceeded to record the phone call discreetly but the app said “ this call is now being recorded” It didn’t bother me and I said it didn’t to her so she knew I knew.

We have about £750.00 which is returned CTAX money (remember I mentioned the summons) – as landlord should have been paying the CTAX on the property as it was a registered HMO but she got the tenants to pay it which was wrong. I feel the landlord told the council daughter was the last tenant so they chased her for the money. That backfired as then the council asked the landlord for the back CTAX. – it was a massive amount of stress to sort out.
After a lot of grief, the CTAX money was returned to my daughter (as she paid it on behalf of the house share for the others). We as parents had also paid some bills for CTAX up to when she moved out.
We have returned half the payback to two tenants at their request. One tenant is happy for daughter to use it to pay off landlord she has been very supportive.
We want to offer this money as a final settlement to the landlord.) and I want to email her to that effect – without prejudice – (she said to me on the phone any CTAX money back is hers anyway as per the contract….).
Landlord will ask for more I suspect. Question is will she go to court if I politely refuse.
How would a Judge view this if it ended up in court.

I’m happy to proceed with the offer of about £750.00 the returned CTAX money as settlement.
my ex and daughter said could I ask LB what they/you think.

I’ve not said to the landlord I think her demand for rent arrears is inflated. She knows we got some money back for the CTAX but not how much, or that I’ve paid back tenants and £750 is all that is left.

Tks

[Velox59]

Cut and paste first few pages of contract.

[atticus]

If you think that you can agree with the landlord a sum that will be accepted in full and final settlement, and which you are willing to pay, then by all means do that.

NB page 2 of 5 of your pdf makes it clear that all the tenants are jointly and severally liable for the full rent, and not just their own 'share'.

[Velox59]

The only other thing I forgot to mention is that the tenants all paid a quarter of one months rent to the landlord as a deposit ie each £440.00

This seems to have been kept in an account as described in the contract.
Landlord has kept daughters £440 part of the deposit. She says -
There was some damage caused a broken window when she was detained (accepted).
There were some missing keys for a back gate – but how she can say that’s daughter and not one of the other tenants lost them I don’t know.
Entry was forced I think when detained so the door had some damage to the frame.
Daughter had also removed all the handles, lock etc to keep whoever out. I put all that back on and door was lockable and working – but it was old and could have been old damage for all I know.

So she kept her deposit. I’ve not made and issue of this,. However I could ask for receipts for the damage, and repairs. However, was it insured?, some could be wear and tear and how do you hold daughter to account for missing keys, what’s the evidence ???
Again everything is put onto daughter.
Wear and tear probably accounted for in tax calculations?

Apparently, all the other tenants got their deposit money back I've not made an issue of this but it grates on us all at this end.

Thanks

[Velox59]

If you think that you can agree with the landlord a sum that will be accepted in full and final settlement, and which you are willing to pay, then by all means do that.

NB page 2 of 5 of your pdf makes it clear that all the tenants are jointly and severally liable for the full rent, and not just their own 'share'

So you're confirming as the last tenant she would be responsible for all the rent....

[atticus]

She is jointly and severally liable together with all the other tenants.

[Velox59]

I fully understand that she is liable because of that.
It’s the circumstances of how she is left as the remaining tenant that seems unfair.

I would like to think that a court would see the circumstances and take that into consideration if that where it ended up.

I want to make an offer to the landlord but the amount is not in my hands alone.

[atticus]

Are you saying that the landlord released the others from their joint and several liability?