Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

[teaboy2]

So by this logic there is no such thing as a criminal offence, Because until someone has been found guilty none exists. So I suppose we can tear up all the criminal statue as no one will ever be able to arrest anyone for anything.

No i am saying no offence is deemed to have been committed by a person accused of such, on suspicion alone, until that person is proven to have committed it in court - Not that the act of dog fouling in general is not an offence. And as said its not a criminal offence, its a summary offence. Its also not an offence under criminal law, but under environmental law and public law - Criminal offences and criminal law are for arrestable offences and the more major crimes, such as armed robbery, rape, murder etc. Prior to court action it is merely a civil matter (just like and FPN for parking is) between you and the council. And unlike a councils power to enforce FPN for parking tickets councils have additional powers for enforcing FPN's for dog fouling, so - It only becomes a criminal matter, under summary offence/prosecution, once the council uses its powers granted to them, in relation to dog fouling, by an act of parliament, to begin summary prosecution against the person suspected of having committed the alleged offence. No offence however has been deemed to have been committed by the accused, until it is proven and the court finds the accused guilty.

If you cannot see how ridiculous this is, I am not going to be able to convince you with logical argument.

Its you that's looking ridiculous here Andy. You clearly can not understand what me and BlueBottle are actually saying. And you have clearly demonstrated your over the top compulsive need to be seen as right and both me and bluebottle, and anyone else that may not agree with you, as wrong. You have destroyed this thread, with your obsessive posting of links to back up your argument, when no one is saying that dog fouling is not an offence. We just disagree on your assumption that its a criminal offence, criminal matter (prior to court action) or a crime under criminal law or if it is prosecuted by the CPS (Which it is not). End off the day, your argument (since you started it) is and was never relevant to MIA's circumstances since she was never issued and FPN anyway. You can post as many links to alleged authorities as you like to support YOUR interpretation, but that doesn't make you right, no matter how many links you post.

And yes by offence i mean criminal offence(what other kind of offence is there in this context), an offence against nature or perhaps the little green fairy that lives at the bottom of the garden. - Yes you see alot of fairies don't you andy (i'm speaking in jest of course)

But its not a criminal offence, its a summary offence - Both are crimes yes (and no one is disputing that), but both are very different offences that are prosecuted in different ways. You were arguing that dog fouling was a crime under the wrong context in regards to the form off offence that was committed

Ok Andy i shall correct your factual errors. See above then see below.

DOG FOULING:

Is its a Crime - Yes
Is it a crime/offence under criminal law - No
Is it a Crime/offence under environmental law or public law - Yes
Is it a Criminal offence - No
Is it a Summary Offence - Yes
Is it an Arrestable Crime and/or prosecuted by the CPS - No
Is it a Summary offence and summary prosecution prosecuted by the Council - Yes
Is it a Criminal matter prior to prosecution by the council - No
Is it a Civil matter between person and council prior to prosecution being commenced by the council - Yes
Is it a Criminal matter once prosecution starts - Yes, as a summary offence like road traffic offences (speeding etc) are.

Am sure bluebottle could even add to what i have said too, if he chooses too.

Does this mean then, that we are legally obliged to give our details to an accredited CEO? And that by not doing so we commit a criminal offence?

Did the CEO have reason (evidence) to believe that you had committed an offence? No, as such he was not entitled to issue you an FPN! So he had no grounds in which to issue you an FPN, and as such was not entitled to ask your details. Its also not a criminal offence to not give your details its merely a summary offence if the CEO had reasons to believe you had committed and offence, to which you are entitled to see the evidence. Just because he believes your dog had fouled, he has to be able to substantiate that believe, before he can give you an FPN on suspicion of an offence. Otherwise he could just go up to every dog walker in the park willy nilly and give them an FPN too, using just his say so that he saw the dog fouling as reason to believe.

So... in my case, at the point the Police arrived, it was an alleged civil offense? And remained an alleged civil offence even after the CEO filled out a form reporting me for prosecution? And, had the Tower Hamlets Council decided to pursue prosecution, it would have remained an alleged civil offence, only becoming a criminal offence if a court had heard the case and decided in their favour? Or am I completely misunderstanding?

Yes and No - It would have remained a civil matter (just like a parking ticket FPN is) prior to council commencing summary prosecution proceedings (takes it to court). Once prosecution starts it becomes a criminal matter as an alleged summary offense. But no offence as such is deemed to have been committed by you (as you are only alleged/suspected off), until your guilt is proven in court - Hence innocent to proven guilty. If your guilty you get a summary conviction - just like for speeding or non payment of TV license (fine, costs, compensation). And not a criminal conviction (Much Larger fine and/or imprisonment and/or suspended sentence etc).

Here was my reply in case you missed it

Yet non-payment of council tax can result in prison terms and is an arrestable offence - A Civil matter you say?! (Yoda im.

Says all there needs to be said, really. Doesn't it!

All this legal or not talk rather detracts from the OPs situation. - Tried telling that to Andy 6-7 times now, pointing out that its not even a relevant argeument to MIA circumstances

Could we have here a uniformed wanna be policemen throwing his weight about?would think mthat part of the job training is to be satisfied that the OP in this case is the guilty party from what I read this should be 50/50 so maybe training would be give a polite warning,

Instead we have this Khan character turning the episode into a farce, whether or not there is anything criminal hear talk of human rights laws Etc. just elevates the farce.

one question I have is what does the OP want the outcome of this to be? we have rogue Bailiffs overstepping the mark with their powers and many others including no doubt some CEOs remember no amount of training can turn someone perfect. Here we have such a trained fool thinking they have powers that they have not.

Have to agree, we have a rogue CEO and an argument in this thread not even relevant to the MIA circumstances - And not it seems the argument is moving on to whether non payment of council tax civil or a crime. I say its the latter, just for the record

Just had to comment on this ridiculous statement, this really shows the level of your delusions.

A do you really think that the "government" would conspire to mislead the public by giving factually incorrect information in this manner, and - Expenses scandal and many other instances of fixing figures to make it look better than it actually is.

B If they did do you really think that they would do so on something as minor as saying something was a civil case instead of a "public law offence" (whatever that may be - Seriously, don't you even know what such an offence is.) - Don't forget its web designers, and public servants that write what is on the government websites, not legal professionals, as such. So they could quite easily make such a simple error as to referring to it as a civil case when its not.

Seriously delusional IMO - I agree, you are!

So if non-payment of council tax can result in criminal conviction, imprisonment etc. How is it a civil case?!! Please Explain, to those off us that you believe you are more superior too.

[teaboy2]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

Okay guys, I think that is enough and you're starting to descend to name calling so if you wish to continue this discussion I will move posts to an alternative thread. Otherwise please allow the OP some chance of following the thread.

Apologies Amethyst - I was in process of writing my post when you most have made your post. Though it did take me a while to post mine, as i was having to come back and forth between writing it and taking care of my own business related matters. Sorry.

[Guest]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

Ok Andy i shall correct your factual errors. See above then see below.

DOG FOULING:

Is its a Crime - Yes
Is it a crime/offence under criminal law - No
Is it a Crime/offence under environmental law or public law - Yes
Is it a Criminal offence - No
Is it a Summary Offence - Yes
Is it an Arrestable Crime and/or prosecuted by the CPS - No
Is it a Summary offence and summary prosecution prosecuted by the Council - Yes
Is it a Criminal matter prior to prosecution by the council - No
Is it a Civil matter between person and council prior to prosecution being commenced by the council - Yes
Is it a Criminal matter once prosecution starts - Yes, as a summary offence like road traffic offences (speeding etc) are.

Am sure bluebottle could even add to what i have said too, if he chooses too.




Did the CEO have reason (evidence) to believe that you had committed an offence? No, as such he was not entitled to issue you an FPN! So he had no grounds in which to issue you an FPN, and as such was not entitled to ask your details. Its also not a criminal offence to not give your details its merely a summary offence if the CEO had reasons to believe you had committed and offence, to which you are entitled to see the evidence. Just because he believes your dog had fouled, he has to be able to substantiate that believe, before he can give you an FPN on suspicion of an offence. Otherwise he could just go up to every dog walker in the park willy nilly and give them an FPN too, using just his say so that he saw the dog fouling as reason to believe.




Yes and No - It would have remained a civil matter (just like a parking ticket FPN is) prior to council commencing summary prosecution proceedings (takes it to court). Once prosecution starts it becomes a criminal matter as an alleged summary offense. But no offence as such is deemed to have been committed by you (as you are only alleged/suspected off), until your guilt is proven in court - Hence innocent to proven guilty. If your guilty you get a summary conviction - just like for speeding or non payment of TV license (fine, costs, compensation). And not a criminal conviction (Much Larger fine and/or imprisonment and/or suspended sentence etc).



Yet non-payment of council tax can result in prison terms and is an arrestable offence - A Civil matter you say?! (Yoda im.

Says all there needs to be said, really. Doesn't it!



Have to agree, we have a rogue CEO and an argument in this thread not even relevant to the MIA circumstances - And not it seems the argument is moving on to whether non payment of council tax civil or a crime. I say its the latter, just for the record




So if non-payment of council tax can result in criminal conviction, imprisonment etc. How is it a civil case?!! Please Explain, to those off us that you believe you are more superior too.

You seem to be introducing categories of offence that do not exist, something is either a criminal offence or it isn't, there are not degrees, there are different levels of fine and punishment for different types of offence but a criminal offence is a criminal offence, I am afraid anything else is a figment of your imagination. I have shown you the criminal legislature pertaining to this offence, the criminal fine scale that is applied as sanction, I do not know what else really to show you.

I am not going to waste my time instructing you on council tax enforcement, I found this on the net it explains about civil and criminal law in this context, there is plenty more on there I suggest you Google.

http://www.isitfair.co.uk/Downloads/...aying%20CT.doc

Not Paying Council Tax

What is the legal situation regarding non payment of Council Tax?

The following is by a qualified solicitor

The legal situation is that non-payment of Council Tax is not a crime, or anything illegal. It is only a civil matter, and a Liability Order is not a criminal order, not would anyone in receipt of a Liability Order have a criminal record. It does not even amount to a County Court Judgement, and it is not recorded by Registry Trust, which is the Government body responsible for recording County Court Judgements. The only two licensed credit reference agencies - Experian and Equifax - have both confirmed the above, as have Registry Trust.

The following is from the legal department of a local county council

Not paying Council Tax is certainly not a criminal offence and the issue of a liability order at the Magistrates Court does not create a criminal record, nor even does it affect your credit rating, unlike County Court judgements, which do!

The remedies for recovery of unpaid Council Tax are:

Ÿ Attachment of earnings or benefits
Ÿ Distraint Order (seizure of goods to the value of the debt by bailiffs)
Ÿ Insolvency proceedings (bankruptcy)
Ÿ Putting a charge on the debtor’s property
Ÿ Imprisonment.

Costs are incurred for the issue of the summons (£25.70 currently), more costs are incurred for the issue of the liability (£25.00 currently), more costs are incurred when bailiffs are involved (various), more costs are incurred if committal is sought or a charge is put onto the property or bankruptcy action is taken. These costs vary according to the action taken.

The question regarding contempt of court has been referred to the Council's solicitor. However I have not, yet known anyone to be prosecuted for it.

[Guest]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

To clarify the legal situation regarding the criminal offence of dog fouling.

Initially the Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996 was implemented via various bye laws individual to the authority which applied them. This is still the case for those who have yet to adopt the provisions of the Clean Neighborhoods and Environment act(see below)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...0050016_en.pdf


Both pieces of legislature enable criminal fines to be issued for dog fouling.And are amendments to the CRIME and disorder act 1998

Clean Neighbourhoods and
Environment Act 2005
2005 CHAPTER 16
An Act to amend section 6 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998; to make provision
for the gating of certain minor highways; to make provision in relation to vehicles
parked on roads that are exposed for sale or being repaired; to make provision in
relation to abandoned vehicles and the removal and disposal of vehicles; to make
provision relating to litter and refuse, graffiti, fly-posting and the display of
advertisements; to make provision relating to the transportation, collection,
disposal and management of waste; to make provision relating to the control of
dogs and to amend the law relating to stray dogs; to make provision in relation to
noise; to provide for the Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment
and for the making of grants relating to the quality of the built environment; to
amend the law relating to abandoned shopping and luggage trolleys; to amend
the law relating to statutory nuisances; to amend section 78L of the
Environmental Protection Act 1990; to amend the law relating to offences under
Schedule 1 to the Pollution Prevention and Control Act 1999; and for connected
purposes. [7th April 2005]

I am not going to comment further on this thread.

[teaboy2]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

So if its not an offence - then how come one can be fined, imprisoned and get a CRIMINAL RECORD for not paying council tax - By not complying fully with the council tax liability order by truthfully completing and filling in the Information Request form, that comes with it??? You can not be imprisoned for a civil matter as that's like saying you can be put imprison for committing no crime, but just because the government or council want you imprison!!

Bluebottle was referring to the offence of non payment of council tax where a liability order had not been fully or honestly complied with. Which is an offence, punishable by criminal conviction and imprisonment. The only part of enforcing council tax that is civil is prior to non compliance with the liability order or full and honest completion of the information request form.

By the way, i love how you conveniently post information from a downloaded document that from the isitfair website. Where it only alleges that the information was from a legal professional but provided no details to back that up - They may have just written it themselves and just said it was from a legal professional. Here's the download link for the very document - Click Here - i suppose your claiming that's you authority on the subject?1

Whilst the issuing of a liability order is not a criminal matter, the non compliance and/or failure to or providing untrue information provided by the debtor is though - So is successive non payments of council tax.

For christ sake andy - when will this arguing on a subject(s) not relevant to this thread stop. You have already destroyed the thread, by insisting on arguing a subject that was not relevant to the OP actual issue and circumstance in any case- Which i had pointed out 6-7 separate times. Now you want to argue about whether non payment of council tax is criminal or not.

[Guest]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

Teaboy owing money is a civil matter.

The fact that council tax arrears is a civil offence is well documented, the issue of enforcement through the magistrates court has been the topic of discussion for many years, as has the punishment of imprisonment for what is a civil offence. The way that the authorities get around this is by saying that the sentencing is a coercive measure to illicit payment rather than a punitive one, which would only be permitted in a criminal context.

Terboy, this is not something for debate this is fact, if you doubt this then I urge you to do some reading and LOOK IT UP, instead of wasting everyone time on here.

This may be news to you but to the rest of the world it is old news.

[wales01man]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

Andy58 you bored with this yet cos we all are!

[Guest]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

Andy58 you bored with this yet cos we all are!

If people make factually incorrect statements I am going to correct them, sorry if that bores you. Or would you rather be misinformed ?

[wales01man]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

I was wondering what the thread was about ?then it turns into a slanging match between you and others
Remember there are always more than 1 view on a subject I want to see what the OP can do here not if there is a civil or criminal case for everything

[teaboy2]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

Teaboy owing money is a civil matter.

The fact that council tax arrears is a civil offence is well documented, the issue of enforcement through the magistrates court has been the topic of discussion for many years, as has the punishment of imprisonment for what is a civil offence. The way that the authorities get around this is by saying that the sentencing is a coercive measure to illicit payment rather than a punitive one, which would only be permitted in a criminal context.

Terboy, this is not something for debate this is fact, if you doubt this then I urge you to do some reading and LOOK IT UP, instead of wasting everyone time on here.

This may be news to you but to the rest of the world it is old news.

Really so no criminal record as a result then - Seems your wrong http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/200..._council_tax/1 (see paragraph above the committal section) - See i posted a link to what you yourself called an authority, and this is not the only one that says about getting a criminal record. Surely you can not get a criminal record if, its a civil matter as you say.

Tell you what, lets experiment, how about you not pay your council tax and ignore any liability order and if need be refuse to pay up several times, then come back and tell us all about your fancy new criminal record, and what the cells are like in prison nowadays!

Seems like the rest of the world knows whats what, where as your the one that's clearly out of the loop!

Again, what relevance is this or either argument to MIA? Or is it only relevant to your own selfish need to be right all the time. As walesman said, "Remember there are always more than 1 view on a subject", but that doesn't give you a right to deflect the thread into becoming your own selfish need to try and convince others your right and everyone else is wrong. You were banned for that attitude before, remember!

[Guest]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

Really so no criminal record as a result then - Seems your wrong http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/200..._council_tax/1 (see paragraph above the committal section) - See i posted a link to what you yourself called an authority, and this is not the only one that says about getting a criminal record. Surely you can not get a criminal record if, its a civil matter as you say.

Tell you what, lets experiment, how about you not pay your council tax and ignore any liability order and if need be refuse to pay up several times, then come back and tell us all about your fancy new criminal record, and what the cells are like in prison nowadays!

Seems like the rest of the world knows whats what, where as your the one that's clearly out of the loop!

Again, what relevance is this or either argument to MIA? Or is it only relevant to your own selfish need to be right all the time. As walesman said, "Remember there are always more than 1 view on a subject", but that doesn't give you a right to deflect the thread into becoming your own selfish need to try and convince others your right and everyone else is wrong. You were banned for that attitude before, remember!

???????

[teaboy2]

Re: Show me the poo! - Over reactivive civil enforcement officer

Whats that Andy?? Are not able to explain how someone can get a criminal record for what you call a civil matter... Surely not!!

Must must be very frustrating, and painful for you, if you need to bang your head against a wall just to come up with an explanation as to how people, who do not pay their council tax, can end up with a criminal record and a fine for what is, in your opinion, a civil matter.

Ohh and also, wasn't it you that said, when we were arguing about dog fouling being criminal or not, that you can not be fined for a civil matter, only criminal?! Yet people are fined for non payment of council tax!

[teaboy2]

Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

I have created this thread so that it the argument contained here in the "Show me the poo!" thread - http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...162#post408162 can be continued in this thread

[Guest]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

Whats that Andy?? Are not able to explain how someone can get a criminal record for what you call a civil matter... Surely not!!

Must must be very frustrating, and painful for you, if you need to bang your head against a wall just to come up with an explanation as to how people, who do not pay their council tax, can end up with a criminal record and a fine for what is, in your opinion, a civil matter.

Ohh and also, wasn't it you that said, when we were arguing about dog fouling being criminal or not, that you can not be fined for a civil matter, only criminal?! Yet people are fined for non payment of council tax!

[Guest]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

OK start from the top

When people are imprisoned for none payment of council tax they do not get a criminal record because it is not a criminal offence.

THe sanction is not a penalty it is proportionate to the sum owed, yes I know but it is the way it works, officially it is said to be a way of recovering the debt (a coercive measure)and not a punishment, the details are contained here.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/47/made

(7) The order in the warrant shall be that the debtor be imprisoned for a time specified in the warrant which shall not exceed 3 months, unless the amount stated in the warrant is sooner paid; but—
(a)where a warrant is issued after a postponement under paragraph (3)(b) and, since the term of imprisonment was fixed but before the issue of the warrant, the amount mentioned in paragraph (4)(a) with respect to which the warrant would (but for the postponement) have been made has been reduced by a part payment, the period of imprisonment ordered under the warrant shall be the term fixed under paragraph (3) reduced by such number of days as bears to the total number of days in that term less one day the same proportion as the part paid bears to that amount, and
(b)where, after the issue of a warrant, a part payment of the amount stated in it is made, the period of imprisonment shall be reduced by such number of days as bears to the total number of days in the term of imprisonment specified in the warrant less one day the same proportion as the part paid bears to the amount so stated.
(8) In calculating a reduction required under paragraph (7) any fraction of a day shall be left out of account; and rule 55(1), (2) and (3) of the Magistrates' Courts Rules 1981(1) applies (so far as is relevant) to a part payment as if the imprisonment concerned were imposed for want of sufficient distress to satisfy a sum adjudged to be paid by a magistrates' court

See here also page 5
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05525.pdf


People who owe council tax do not get "a fine" that would be a penalty not allowed in a civil action.
There is a member on here(mostly OTR) who is currently pursuing many councils for trying to issue penalties for council tax collection, and he is doing very well, it is not allowed, costs only.

People get fined for dog fouling because it is a criminal act and therefore subject to a penalty(fine). This is the same as any other crime where a punishment is involved.