Council Tax after death

[JulieM]

Re: Council Tax after death

Sorry clarifications made and advice given from Des. All sorted.

Even an if the council insist on payment it is 3 months approx April til July and I can't see the executor being personally liable.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Council Tax after death

For clarity. Council tax was fully paid up until his death - no outstanding arrears. On his death I notified the council who told me no CT payments would be expected for at least 6 months. I am the executor and was granted probate in April this year. The house was sold last month and all proceeds as well as remainder of the estate was distributed as per his Will. After this, I receive a bill from the council asking for CT from April (when Probate was granted) until date of sale. Am I personally liable to pay the CT - I'm guessing not? If this is the case how should I respond to the council. Like I said earlier I am not resident in the UK.

1) CT was paid up to date on the person's death. 2) you notified the council personally and put a notice in the relevant paper. 3) April 2016, you received the Bill post distribution of the estate, so no the Council Tax bill cannot stand. A dead man cannot pay from the grave so this is why his estate personal representative (executor/ trustee) is appointed. You did all that was expected of you. The CT bill has to be written off therefore.

In general

Des8 raises an interesting point, if the gift passed to the beneficiary before the distribution of the estate, which is normally 6 months but could be much longer, the liability could be said to have transferred to the beneficiary who prematurely deprived the creditor's right to his due. For the same reasoning the executor equally could be liable against other beneficiaries or the creditors their selves.

[des8]

Re: Council Tax after death

The Council Tax claim overpayment, if proven, was against the father during his life, so on his death the claim may have survived for a claim against the now 'deceased's' (testator) estate.' If the claim survived his death it turns into an interest against the assets that the father has: his estate: section 27, TA 1925. As the estate (his late father's property) has not at this point been distributed the executor/ trustee is said to hold the estate on trust for the benefit of the beneficiaries, albeit the trustee/ executor are not liable as they have title (nominally) only. The Council Tax claim where it exists, ie where proven, is simply lost once the executor has duly notified all potential creditors of the death of the debtor: section 27, TA, and the estate has been distributed. There is no claim against the beneficiaries as the beneficiaries were not creditors for the Council Tax.

I think The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) regulations 1992 Part VII sec 58 Outstanding Liabilities on Death disputes that view.
It says (among other things) "his executor or administrator shall,........................ in respect of the matter, be liable to pay the sum and may deduct out of the assets and effects of the deceased any payments made (or to be made)."

[223Vmax]

Re: Council Tax after death

"his executor or administrator shall,........................ in respect of the matter, be liable to pay the sum and may deduct out of the assets and effects of the deceased any payments made (or to be made)."

But what happens once the estate is settled and a then CT bill is received? I think Ill write to the council notifying then that the estate was settled prior to receiving the CT bill and see what happens.

[des8]

Re: Council Tax after death

But what happens once the estate is settled and a then CT bill is received? I think Ill write to the council notifying then that the estate was settled prior to receiving the CT bill and see what happens.

Do as you suggest.
My post was just to show that if there was an outstanding council tax debt from prior to the deceased's passing, disputing the claim on the basis of The Trustee Act 1925 section 27 might not be quite as efficacious as hoped as it is contrary to the regulations to which I referred.
A slight digression from your circumstances

[Openlaw15]

Re: Council Tax after death

I think The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) regulations 1992 Part VII sec 58 Outstanding Liabilities on Death disputes that view.
It says (among other things) "his executor or administrator shall,........................ in respect of the matter, be liable to pay the sum and may deduct out of the assets and effects of the deceased any payments made (or to be made)."

My interpretation of Regulation 58, of the cited 1992 regulations, is that it only applies where the estate is being dealt with by the executor and a), once the person dies and, b) after the person died. So it's only an estate claim in my view for the periods when the person died, before probate, at probate, and, ie appointed executor stage. All of those scenarios fall within the 'estate' definition.

[223Vmax]

Re: Council Tax after death

Could someone help me draft a letter please?

[des8]

Re: Council Tax after death

IMO it would be better for you to draft a letter, and then post it up for comments.
Do not include identifying details such as name and address!

[223Vmax]

Re: Council Tax after death

Thanks. I started to write up a letter but got as far as this then ran out of ideas.

My fathers estate was settled as per his Will on 2nd August 2016. On 17 August I received a CT bill dated 8th August in the amount of £XXX.XX. I ask that this be cancelled as his estate was settled prior to receiving the bill......

I'm sure I need to include advise given here but not sure how to word it.

[JulieM]

Re: Council Tax after death

Why not include the date your father died, the date probate granted and a bit of the regulations quoted early in the thread.
So
I received bill for x on y
My father died on xx and probate granted yy.
The property was sold xx
!y understanding is that no council tax is due u til probate is granted and a further 6 months exemption providing the property remains empty. I can confirm the property was empty u til sale.

Yours
blah blah

write it it in your own words , just a suggestion

[223Vmax]

Re: Council Tax after death

Is this the case here....
58.—(1) This regulation applies where a person dies and at any time before his death—

(a)

he was (or is alleged to have been) liable to pay council tax under section 6, 7 or 8 of the Act, or

(b)

he was (or is alleged to have been) so liable, as spouse, under section 9 of the Act, or

(c)

a penalty was imposed on him under any of sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) of paragraph 1 of Schedule 3 to the Act.
(2) Where—

(a)

before the deceased’s death a sum has become payable by him under Part V or by way of relevant costs in respect of one of the matters mentioned in paragraph (1) but has not been paid, or

(b)

after the deceased’s death a sum would, but for his death (and whether or not on the service of a notice), become payable by him under Part V in respect of one of those matters,



(3) Where paragraph (2)(b) applies, the liability of the executor or administrator does not arise until the service on him of a notice requiring payment of the sum.



The service on me was made after the estate was dealt with so they will have to pursue the beneficiaries? Or does 2b refer to a cost while he was alive and would have become payable but for his death?

My conclusion here is that the Council cant pursue me personally for the CT - correct? The CT is charged against the estate and not me as Executor.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Council Tax after death

Thanks. I started to write up a letter but got as far as this then ran out of ideas.

My fathers estate was settled as per his Will on 2nd August 2016. On 17 August I received a CT bill dated 8th August in the amount of £XXX.XX. I ask that this be cancelled as his estate was settled prior to receiving the bill......

I'm sure I need to include advise given here but not sure how to word it.

Where's your intro? Rule of thumb, 1) intro, 2) explain, 3) conclude.

An applicable intro. Do not use concrete language, ie use non command terms such as may, alleged, apparent.

"I received your letter concerning X Council's apparent claim against my late father's estate on X date, which relates to an alleged outstanding Council Tax/ arrears."

This is an intro but it also makes certain allusions, ie acknowledges the Council merely has a claim and that you're cognisant that if any claims were applicable they're limited to claims against estate, and 'not personal claims' against the person, ie you./ executor/ whomever.

"Without any prejudice to X Council, this is in my view a controversial claim and naturally, as can be expected, I herein make a request that said Council provides self with the legal authorities, for instance any provision by way of legislation and or case law principles pertaining to public authorities 'estate' claims, to enforce a claim against my father's estate."

"In terms of facts, without prejudice to X Council, I additionally make a request that said Council provides suitable evidence to validate any outstanding Council Tax arrears. For purposes of clarity, I require the details from Council Tax records which substantiate not just a monetary value but rather a precise sum."

"I furthermore, request any information that X Council possesses that either indicates or is blatantly evident that I have kept the council up to date with the Council Tax when dealing with my father's estate from beginning to end. For purposes of clarity, I make request for information either by verbal exchanges or in written expression (ie letters etc), which substantiates that I have alerted said council throughout the process."

You're Inviting the Council to cite the law for their claims, and next you're inviting them to look at the information they hold that you've already provided them with. Don't open Pandora's proverbial box unless you have to.

[JulieM]

Re: Council Tax after death

Hi Vmax
I thought the whole point was that there was no council tax at all due because
1) There were no arrears at the time your father died

2) Council tax is not due u til probate is granted

3) After probate is granted , providing the house is unoccupied there is 6 months of no council tax.

4) You kept the council fully informed- if in fact you did, for example did you tell them the house had been sold?

In in any event assuming 1 and 2 were correct there would only be 3 months due but the argument is that there is non due.

Personally I think that the letter drafted by Openlaw has completely missed the point. In addition I think it is just far too heavy. I know councils can be difficult to deal with but simple straightforward letters will almost certainly get the result you want.

[des8]

Re: Council Tax after death

IMO you need something rather basic.
Along these lines perhaps:

Re council tax demand ref******

I write to confirm that the dwelling house *******
was owned by my late father.
He passed away on***************, at which time there was no outstanding council tax due.
The property was then unoccupied.
Probate was granted to me on*****************
The property was sold on ************
The estate has been distributed to my late father's heirs.

My understanding is that following his death the property is considered exempt for council tax purposes until probate is granted, and thereafter for a period of six months whilst remaining empty.

Accordingly I believe the captioned demand has been made in error and I await your confirmation of its cancellation.

Await others comments!

[JulieM]

Re: Council Tax after death

Des
I agree and you have been very succinct. A great letter.