Permanent Caveat

[des8]

Re: Estate Accounts

You can always go to mediation, but not agree to a settlement if they don't produce a coherent claim.
The inconsistencies in their statements confirms me more IMO that they are trying to bully you into offering something, anything rather than go to litigation.
As [MENTION=85500]Peridot[/MENTION] and my earlier post it is not unusual for claimants to threaten litigation as they think they are immune to a costs order "as it comes out of the estate". Well it doesn't always.

[Peridot]

Re: Estate Accounts

Hi again,
I agree with Des8. If an application to Court was made by them then the Courts expect parties to try and reach agreement through mediation is at all possible. It appears that they aren't going to show their card and I would guess that is because they know they may be at risk if they issued an application. Hold your nerve, take your solicitors advice. Although, If they are not coming up with any evidence to back their claim what are you negotiating? There are always risks going to Court. From what you have said it appears you have obtained the evidence you need to validate the Will you are appointed under. Maybe accept the offer for mediation but with only with confirmation from them of their alleged claim?
As Des8 said you don't have to negotiate a settlement at all at mediation and I suspect you will know pretty rapidly into the session whether there is any chance of negotiating or if this is just a last ditch attempt by them to get something!
Just one other thing, are the other party family and did the person who died support them in any way financially or their children, paying school fees for example or some such. It may be another potential claim route but I suspect not as that would have been a stronger claim to raise at the outset, but thought I should check.

[magenta]

Re: Estate Accounts

Hi Peridot,
You have said If an application to Court was made by them then the Courts expect parties to try and reach agreement through mediation is at all possible. By this do you mean the permenant caveat? Or do they have to made another application? As I am unsure of what you mean - sorry about that.

To be honest I am not sure of what we are negotiating as they have not put in a final claim after being asked twice. The first letter before claim they were accusing the executors of taking money. ie me. Then we received a second letter before claim then leaving the executors out of it, but accusing the beneficiary. Which I might have we have documentation from the banks to prove this was a false allegation in both accounts. Our solicitor then asked them to finalize their claim on two seperate occasions as they were requesting documents from us. Our solicitor has never had a response as they have chosen to ignor it. Now we have received a letter stating they are ready to issue proceedings but still asking for us to get documents ie GP reports etc for them. If we do not agree to mediate within 14 days they are going to start proceedings. So I really do not fully know what their claim is at this time.
They keep stating that if our will is valid by the judge that they would then start proceeding under the inheritance act. Recently this part seems to have died a death.
The relationship between the deceased and the claiment is adult stepchild. That was an adult when they got married and soon left within weeks.
Magenta

[Peridot]

Re: Estate Accounts

No worries, sorry I probably didn't make it very clear. This would be a new application to the Court claiming your will is invalid due to a capacity issue or allegations of undue influence (very difficult to prove!) and either to persuade the Court to reinstate the previous Will they claim exists (IMO very unlikely to be successful). If they were successful on the first count, showing your will is invalid but unsuccessful on the second then the intestacy rules would have to be followed. So to spouse initially then children. Other family would only benefit and again in a strict order, would only benefit if there is no surviving spouse or children.

Any possible claim under the Inheritance (Provision for Family & Dependants) Act as an adult independent child and have not been receiving any regular financial assistance for example is doubtful to be successful.

I suppose the mediation may get them to show their hand so to speak, but also if they did then bring a claim in the courts it puts you in a good light. If they do not explain what they want then you can't negotiate/mediate with them, you don't have to agree to anything but if you know what their thoughts are then you can discuss with your solicitor any plan of action if needed.

In my opinion, the letters are probably threats to try and get you to maybe offer something rather than the possible issue of them making a claim and the potential costs of defending the claim. Mediation possibly gives you more information to make a more informed decision what next move to make, if any. Take your solicitors advice. You can always pop on the forum if you have any queries or feel you need a bit of support.

[magenta]

Re: Estate Accounts

Hi Peridot,
Thank you for your advice and for the advice that everyone else gave really appreciated it.
I do have a feeling that I may pop back, even if it is just to update everyone.
Magenta

[magenta]

Hearings

Hi All,

Hoping someone can advise, when you had been called to a probate hearing (to place a permentant caveat on) can I ask are you entittled or should you be presented with the documents that the claiment replies upon to be shown to you before being called to court. Or do you just find out on the day what they are to produce is that the norm. As we never see any documents before the hearing, so I thought I should ask.


Magenta

[Peridot]

Re: Hearings

Hi Magenta,
Is this as a result of you (or the executor) having placed a warning so the person who placed the caveat has been ordered to make an appearance?
An appearance does not have to be in person but will require them to indicate the need for the caveat? If so then a hearing where both parties attend is not necessarily what is required. Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick but a little more information would be helpful.

[magenta]

Re: Hearings

Hi Peridot,


Sorry for the delay in getting back in touch.


We had obtained Grant of Probate and then received a summons to go to court by the claiment to get the grant revoked and a permanent caveat placed on.

The claiment issued an affidavit to the court (different from the original caveat) and witness statements. So my question is should we have seen the affidavit and statements prior to the court hearing.

Magenta

[Peridot]

Re: Hearings

HI,
You shouldn't take any actions with regard to the estate at this time until the hearing has been decided. Do you have no idea why the person has made the application? Was there no indication previously and has the person been in touch before? I assume that this is a relative who has applied? A little more information may be helpful, such as is there a valid Will, were you (and any other person) appointed executors or are you administrators (ie where there is no Will).
I would contact the Court that you received the summons from and explain that you have not seen the witness statement and request copies. Once you have them it may be necessary to see a contentious probate specialist. Usually this is a lawyer in a firm's litigation department, but some probate/private client departments in firms, have specialists in that department, so you may need to call around.
I have not had this happen before, usually once Probate has been granted if a person has a claim against the estate then the claim is made, not an application to revoke the Grant and prevent another being granted. I think a few more details would assist in working out what the issue is. Do they believe there is a another later Will for example?
Sorry more questions than answers but start by contacting the Court and it may explain more why this application has been made.

[magenta]

Re: Hearings

Hi
Hearing has been and gone, we were told as executors by our solicitor we do not attend as we would have no bearing on outcome. (rather strange as we pick up the bill?).
The bit I do not understand is we were summonds to court but we had no prior knowledge or understanding of what was going to be presented to the court. Six months after the hearing we were sent a copy of the affidavit stating they were beneficiaries of a previous will?
This was sent with witness statements covering a range of things again we never got copies of these BUT as we were charged for the statements I have to presume that they were presented to the Judge? As I believe you only get charged for the hearing concerned and the witness statements were covered in the costs.

So my question is should we have been presented with the documentation that they were going to present before the Judge before the hearing took place.
Which now resulted in a permanent caveat being place on.
Magenta

[Peridot]

Re: Hearings

Hi again,
Bit of misunderstanding along the way with this I think. It wasn't clear from the original post that a hearing had already happened and that the grant had been revoked and the caveat placed already. When did this happen? Have you heard anything further from the other party regarding any claim or requesting info about the Will that you obtained the Grant with?
I am unsure why a summons would be sent if you are not expected to attend?
So you have sought legal advice already? What did the solicitor suggest?
A caveat can be applied with no notice to anyone. If the Grant has already been issued then it would need to be revoked provided the Court believed there were sufficient grounds to warrant the further investigation of the Wills. The application fee is set and is no different whether witness statements are provided or not. There is no additional charge if statements are included. You say you have had to pay the costs. Was there a costs order made at the hearing that the estate should pay? Sorry it is all a bit confused in the post.
To investigate the validity of the Will further, information needs to be obtained particularly concerning the Will used to obtain the Grant and it's preparation. Has any request been forthcoming? Were you sent a copy of any order made at the hearing?
Have you seen your solicitor since the hearing and asked their advice?
Again more questions than answers but we need to understand the situation more fully to be able to point you in the right direction really.

[magenta]

Re: Hearings

Hi Peridot,
Sorry for delay been trying to find the papers relating to hearing. I have not seen any order of costs from my solicitor only told that we had to pay ourselves. The only document that was presented to us before the hearing was a N260 Statement of costs from the other side. We did receive a summons to attend hearing, and we were making preparations to attend. However once speaking to our solicitor he advised us not to attend because we would have no bearing on the outcome. The judge recommended that the will file be requested from the solicitors that prepared the will then this should resolve the matter. Question raised and answered, to investigate the validity of the will. Since then they will not finalize their case, just keep sending letters before action stating will not finalize until papers received from us regarding estate. They also want us to get medical reports etc to help them finalize their case. Surely this is not my job to finalize their case?

[magenta]

What to do next?

Hi

Can someone advise me what I should do next if the other side sent medical evidence down to our solicitor. Which now reveals daming evidence to them, I say this due to the fact they are now stating that they do not have this evidence?

We have wrote to ask if they have the medical records again, however on two occassions they have refused to comment.

So do I now send the medical reports back to them recorded delivery highlighting that they have the records as they sent them to us. I think they must now realise that they made a mistake or can someone give me advice on what I should do now?

This is because anything that proves their case to be incorrect they are now dening having the paper work.

Thanks in advance

Magenta

[Kati]

Re: Permanent Caveat

Tagging @Peridot again xx
[MENTION=88732]magenta[/MENTION] ... I've merged all your previous threads on to this one so all the info is in one place

[Peridot]

Re: Permanent Caveat

Hi Magenta,

As we have said before the person who placed the caveat can remove it or a Court order must be sought to have it removed. I suspect they are waiting for some sort of indication that you would be willing to negotiate some sort of settlement rather than risking going to Court. You need to take your solicitor's advice. If the chances of you being successful are far greater then failing then it seems to me why not apply for the caveat to be removed?
If there is any doubt however then maybe an offer of something rather than nothing on the basis they agree to remove the caveat and receive a legacy of some description may be preferable.

Sorry we can't give you a definite answer here. Your solicitor having seen the bits of evidence they believe they are intending on relying on (medical records, will writer's file etc) should be better placed to advise on the most sensible option for you in this situation.