Disregarded asset sold after death? Confusing?

[Bat135]

Hi

My father sadly passed away in 2021. I miss him dearly which is why the situation I find myself in is more than difficult. I need advice and help.

My father had very little, rented his home and had an old banger car. He was only 63 when he died and it was horrendous given medical negligence ontop of a number of serious conditions.

The only asset my father had was a 1/6 share in a piece of land now being sold for over 500k. This was brought by my late grandfather and his brother and brother in law, in equal share. I am not certain if they were tenants in common or joint tenants. There was no residents on the land and it was nobodies sole residence. It was farm land with stables and a workshop.

Anyways. On the original deeds it’s shows my grandad as third owner in equal share stating his 1/3 would be passed onto his children upon death in equal share. 1/6 to my dad and 1/6 to my auntie.

5 years before my fathers death he was signed off work medically indefinitely due to his illness.

He therefor, with no income, had to apply for benefits. He stated his interest in this land and was refused benefits even though it generated no income and could not be sold due to the other owners not wanting to sell. So, eventually he was awarded benefits after the other owners signed something to prove to the DWP that they didn’t authorise it to be sold.

I am assuming the DWP therefore disregarded the asset. As my father was eventually given full benefits including Pip, esa and housing benefit.

When my father died he left a 100 pounds car which was scrapped and 1500 in the bank. We did the notify once procedure and settled his bills and that was that. We just removed his name from the land registry as we could not maintain it on the promise we would recieve our share from my auntie if it was ever sold. We never thought it would.

in the meantime I had filed a no win no fee medical case against his medical care and gave a strong case that is likely to win. I have been told by the medical solicitor I will need probate or letters of administration to recieve any compensation as this would be paid to my father’s estate. So probate is needed. If I don’t I will have to cancel the no win no fee case and be liable for over 17.5k in legal fees.

So probate is a must. This means I need to include my fathers share of the land as he owned it at death.. although it’s now technically in my aunties name.

low and behold and without our consent, although we don’t really mind, one of the other parties has issued a forced sale under section 15 TOLATA rules. And it’s being sold for over 500k.


My auntie is going to give us 80k total (I have 3 brothers).

Could the DWP now claim back all my father’s benefits back? Even though this land was declared to them at the time he applied for benefits? And do I need to include it on probate? Technically my auntie is giving us a gift? Can I do probate for the medical case and not include the land on probate? We just don’t know and can’t find advice anywhere? We really don’t want to lose what small inheritance we have to the system for benefits he needed at the time and honestly declared? He even lost his pension as it was non contributions type and as he was divorced and we were not dependents we were told we get nothing. Even though he left an expression of wish form for his pension.

it’s heart breaking.

And very emotional and stressful. My family worked hard for this and to lose it seems very unjust and very unfair. My father was always honest and the system let him down medically. It’s just a mess. We need help to ensure he doesn’t get treated badly again (even if it is after he has died).

Please help if you can? What should or can I do.

[Pezza54]

Hi Welcome to LB
Very sorry to read about the problems you are having to deal with. It sounds stressful

There is no legal time limit to apply to Probate for letters of administration. You and your siblings should decide who wants to be administrator. I will assume it is you that will apply
You need to calculate the value of your father's estate at the time of his death. This includes one sixth share of the land value now being sold for £500k. You should backdate this figure to 2021

Did you and your brothers all agree to transfer your father's 1/6 share of the land to your aunt? Did you put any agreement in writing? Under the rules of intestacy (your father didn't leave a will), the four of you should each have received 1/24 share of the land
To remove your father's name from the deeds and transfer his share to your aunt, you would have had to complete and sign form TP1 and send it to the land registry. Do you recall doing this?

DWP made payments to your father based on his income and savings at the time. They accepted that your father was unable to sell his share of the property so discounted it in means testing. IMO they will not try to reclaim money. If your solicitor believed the DWP could and would claim money back, he is in effect working on their behalf

[Bat135]

Thanks for your thoughts so far.

i have since spoken to the DWP. It seems it wasn’t disregarded but the value was estimated by DWP after my father provided signatures from the other parties that they refused to sell. The value the DWP eventually arrived at was 13.500 for my father’s share. So he was awarded benefits but at reduced amount. Initially they were refused.

My brother took our dad’s name off it and completed the land registry forms. My aunt inherited 1/6th and my dad inherited 1/6th when my grandfather. The initial owner died. We were left dads 1/6th with no will but through intestate rules as next of kin.

As we see it is at the point of death my dad owned his share, irrespective of taking his name of the land registry shortly after.

We did the tell us once at the time.

Now, 2024, three years after death we need to do probate for a no win no fee medical case. This means we have to include the land… even though it’s no longer in my father’s name it was at death. And probate requires all assets at time of death.

So we have estimated value at time of death.

This means when probate gets looked into the value of my dad’s share at death will be compared to what was out on his original claim for benefits.

The land could not be sold at the time but now, in 2024 is being sold.

My auntie is going to give us our 1/6th if the proceeds. That we will hold in a separate probate account until it’s all finalised.

Our question is would the DWP have a claim against his estate as the value at death is more than what the DWP values it on his original benefits claim.

I think we could argue on appeal if they did make a claim for his benefits back that it would have cost the DWP to force a sale at the time my father claimed… therefore rendering the asset worthless. As the other parties refused to sell. So although my father owned 1/6th that exceeded the 16000 threshold…. Its actual value was zero? Who would buy a 1/6th share of something where the other parties would not let them do anything? The realistic market value to anyone else is debatable but as it would cost the dwp to force a sale? The capital value for benefits was negligible at the time. How could my father live with no income? It couldn’t be sold?

The issue is now it is being sold after his death.

Could we challenge a dwp decision if they decided to claim his benefits back for an undervalued asset? For some reason they initially refused him benefits but then changed thier mind and put the value at the time at 13.500 for his share… so he got benefits in the end but reduced. I don’t know where this value came from or why they valued it at that amount? It could be they factored in the costs it would cost them to force the other parties to sell? Which the dwp can do…

We just don’t know.

The fact we took dads name of it shortly after death is irrelevant as my auntie is not denying us his fair share of the sale proceeds and my father owned his 1/6th at death.

So we are doing probate retrospectively if you like. With a valuation at time of death if his 1/6th. Which, after sale fees would be estimated to be 55k. Yet on his original benefits claim they first estimated it at 20.500 (claim for benefits refused) and then 13.500 (claim for benefits awarded)?

I guess it could be argued the DWP made an official error. As because my dad didn’t know what it was worth but provided signatures from the other parties that they refused to sell…. The DWP estimated the value based on all probability.

So I guess we just wait for the probate to go through and see if they do claim against the estate. And if they do just appeal appeal appeal. ??

I hope the above clarifies things more to get some more specific advice from anyone who can help us?

[Pezza54]

I don't believe DWP could have forced the sale of the land. They could have registered a charge against your father's 1/6 share but chose not to. At the time of his death, because it was only one sixth share and the other owners did not want to sell, your father's share was only worth £13,500. This is the figure you should include for probate estate valuation
"Tell us once" would not include the removal of your father's name on the land deeds. See my previous post.
It is important to determine whether you and your brothers decided to gift your father's share to your aunt or whether you each still own 1/24 share under the rules of intestacy. If you don't and your aunt is actually gifting you £20k each, this may affect the IHT calculation for her estate when she passes

[Bat135]

You are not understanding the issue correctly.

It’s on my fathers original benefits decision as being valued at 13.500.

He owned 1/6th when he died.

At the time of death his share was valued at 55 to 60k. Probate valuation.

it is irrelevant that we took his name if it after death because at the point of death he owned it. Nobody owns 1/24th. My dad and my auntie both owned 1/6th. So we got left 1/6th.

There is no IHT as it falls below threshold.

But there is a difference between what was put on his benefits clsim 5 years before he died to what is is worth when he died.

60k - 13.5k. That’s a difference the DWP will pick up on probate investigation.

[Pezza54]

Sorry you are now confusing me. As I understand it, probate should have been obtained after your father's death to transfer his share of the property to your aunt (a deed of variation to the rules of intestacy was required) or 1/24 share transferred to each of you and your 3 brothers (under the rules of intestacy-no deed of variation)
You haven't yet obtained probate, so his share has not been formally transferred (form TP1 still awaits)
You should check with the Land Registry if and how your father's share of the land was transferred to your aunt

[Pezza54]

On the website Shelter.org.uk it states under "Market value"

"DWP guidance instructs decision makers to work out the current market value either:

• themselves
• based on evidence given by the owner of the capital or
• based on evidence from an expert valuer"

It seems that DWP does not just rely on valuations by the claimant/owner of the property

So the DWP had the responsibility of valuing the property in 2016, when you father first claimed

If the DWP failed to update the property valuation each passing year, that is their own fault

If DWP try to claim back money you should point out it was their responsibility to value your father's share of the land

1966 "They think it's all over"

[Bat135]

Yep. These are my thoughts. They actually stated they had valued the share at the time based on all probabilities.

we didn’t transfer it to my aunt. We just took his name of the land registry.

we didn’t do probate at the time. But now have to retrospectively. So we are going to outbid the probate his share at the time of death. Which is 350k * 1/6 equalling 60k ish. As he owned 1/6th at the time of death.

i only have two brothers. Three of us in total. So we inherit 1/6th between us of 1/18th each.

the issue is they took the value based at 20500 as my father had in his mind it was worth 90pc in total so they decided on his share based on this. Unless he could provide evidence of its true value or that it couldn’t be sold. He then provided signatures that said it couldn’t be sold from all other owners.

so essentially he had no access to it? And the only way the dwp could do it and they said they could do this was force a sake.

hiw can my dad deemed to have capital if it was not accesssble? It’s only worth as capital what somebody would pay for it?

this is all irrelevant as you can bet the dwp will look at our probate application and compare 60k in assets at death to 13.500 assets in his original benefits claim? Hence, they could claim back all his benefits from the estate. For incorrectly valued capital when he claimed? This seems really unfair considering he was honest to the best of his knowledge at the time but didn’t have an accurate valuation. Do it was all in good faith and I think the dwp just values it themselves?

so I doubt they would stand a chance if we did get a claim from them and we appealed all this on the basis:

1) my father acted in good faith with all that he knew
2) the land could not be sold so it’s true value it cost to realise would be hugely diminished as it would take court cases to force a sale from the other owners refusing to sell. He provided evidence the other parties refused to sell
3) how could he be regarded as having capital if he could not access it to live on the funds?
4) the dwp accepted a valuation at the time
5) he did not knowingly under declare capital

ha actually had to live on his credit cards due to being left seriously ill with no benefits initially. Untill the recalculated the asset as 13.500. I don’t know how they came to this figure as have no records but dwp told me that’s what the value was deemed at in the end?

so. I guess I just do the probate and wait and see if they claim against the estate and then appeal it on the above grounds??

[Bat135]

90k not 90pc* and submit the probate not outbid the probate*
(corrections. Damn spellcheck)

thanks for your help so far all of you. It’s helping.

but any further clarification or definitive answers or ways we could appeal if we need to would be appreciated.

[Pezza54]

[
1966 "They think it's all over"[/QUOTE]

No it's not all over

You've lost a brother and your aunt is now your uncle

The land registry would have wanted formal documents to confirm your father had died and his share of the property had passed to your aunt or uncle

[Bat135]

It was never passed to anyone? We just took my dad’s name of the land registry by signing a form that all the other owners counter signed. So my dad’s name was removed. No probate was needed to do this. As we didn’t need probate at the time. My brother did it as the executor of small estate.

It’s only that we now need to do probate for the medical case. So we can’t just not put the land ownership at date of death on it. As at that snapshot in time it was my father’s. But shortly after we renounced it by taking his name of the ownership?

I did laugh at I have lost a brother and my uncle is now my aunt. lol.

[PallasAthena]

As a practical.mattet how would DWP know that you are putting in for Probate now, many years after they made the benefit decision?

[Bat135]

Because they check all probate applications. And go through benefits claimants. To check if they died with more capital than they declared. I have been told.




That’s what they did. They made thier own valuation based on all evidence of possibilities minus 10pc. And used it in his benefits calculations. But they initially valued it at 20500 and then when dad provided them with signatures to the effect it couldn’t be sold.

It went to down to 13500 in value on the claim later on and we don’t know why.

His benefits readjusted.

All this does not change the fact it couldn’t be sold. Technically rendering it worthless due to the cost to force a sale legally for 4 other parties to take to court?

We just dont want any come back from the dwp as I have put its value at death on his probate as 60k his share. This is more than they valued it in 2017?

Although my father acted to the best of his knowledge at the time and allowing for an increase in value this is still going to look like he lied?

I think he went in an old valuation as didnt get one done at the time. So the DWP accepted that.

Could they claim form his estate? Could we have grounds for appeal? If he was getting ESA and housing benefit and pip on a value of an assets at 13500. For 4 years… this would probably wipe out our inheritance?

Any further thoughts??

[PallasAthena]

How did you arrive at £60 k value for probate?

[Bat135]

It’s been valued. In 2021. His share was 60k when he died.