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Problems with surprise will and care home fees.

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  • Problems with surprise will and care home fees.

    After my dad died 6 weeks ago our family have had quite a few problems to deal with an I am hoping that someone may be able to give me some advise.


    Query 1. I am an executor for my dad’s will and for the moment only administering the cash side of his estate, which is not a huge amount. Since 2007 my father has always given a copy of his will to my husband and discussed it with him. Every time he changed his will he gave my husband a copy. The last will my husband was given was in 2016. This was a reciprocal will with my stepmother where who ever survives the other can stay in the property until end of life, and it was made together with the same solicitor and dad gave my husband a copy of hers too.
    My dad’s relationship with my stepmother was obsessive on his part. He married her so she would have financial benefits including a widows pension which he openly told us about. He passed away on 14th March this year. The week after he died knowing that myself and my husband were executors we checked with his solicitor that the will dated 2016 was the last will. They confirmed it was.
    There were several instances in the following two weeks that made our side of the family feel that there was something going on but we couldn’t put a finger on it. A couple of examples - my stepmother phoned to say she had the death certificate and she had several copies (a week or so later when asking for one I was told they were all gone and we had to get our own). I said that I thought she would need to give a copy to the solicitor. She said she didn’t know who the solicitor was. I said the name of the solicitors. She said is it and said she would ring to find out. As they made this will together with the same solicitor. I found this very strange. She then said she was about to go through dad’s papers (I felt this may be a little early to do that). My dad had been with the same solicitor for 30 years and was very friendly with them, dropping in for cups of tea etc.
    A few days later her daughter phoned the solicitor asking about the will and who the executors were. The solicitor phoned me as she was concerned and said it was ‘a bit weird’. There were other things too, too many to go into detail.
    Just over two weeks after dad died we had a phone call from the solicitor. She asked if here was anything going on, to which we said no. She then told us that another will had been found and she was going to my stepmothers to verify it. She rang later to say she had verified it. (At a later date the solicitor said she would not like to comment on the work of the will writer). It was a will that my dad and stepmother (instead of going to his historic solicitor) had made with a will writer. We were shocked that this had been done in secret as it were with no mention to my husband as in the past. We have never considered we had a right to see dad’s wills when changed, it was just what he did. We were shocked that dad had made this will with stepmother in such a clandestine manner.
    The peculiar things that had been going on began to make sense. My stepmother knew of the existence of the will she had made at the same time and in the same room as my dad, was actively looking for it (‘going through dads papers’) and yet didn’t say anything for 2 weeks and let us know via the solicitor!
    The will, made in 2018 had changes in that my stepmother had now been made an executor along with myself and my husband and also a beneficiary along with myself and two brothers. It also became apparent that they had taken out a 51K equity release in the same year of which we knew nothing but stepmother’s family did. My dad at the time was 88! There was, however, a memorandum. The memorandum is not mentioned or referred to in the will and I have read if it is not then may not be legally binding. Is this the case? And does it matter what it contains?


    Query 2
    My stepmother was responsible for paying the care home fees for my dad since last July. The first two invoices for Sept and Oct she paid eventually. She has paid nothing since. Last week I had an email from the Council with a list of outstanding invoices that came to a hefty sum. I rang them and they gave me quite a lot of information including that she had signed a contract to pay the fees and they had sent her invoices, she didn’t sign the direct debit they sent her and had ignored communications from them. In actual fact they wrote to her at the beginning of March asking for more financial information and she didn’t reply. She didn’t pay them a penny. They did say, however, that she had signed a contract to say she would pay the fees.
    My husband rang her and was extremely polite but did ask her questions about the invoices, direct debit etc. She was hesitant, evasive and lied about some things, such as she didn’t know what the care home fees were, nobody told her! Nobody ever got back to her from the Council etc. Being as she paid the first two invoices and signed a contract to say she would pay which contained the information about the fees this was obviously a lie.
    She rang my husband back and said that if he wanted to speak to her further about this he was to do it via her solicitor.
    My dad has provided everything for her. He has left her everything in the property, even things that belong to us, as they were mum’s. There is no documentation to say that the fees should be paid from dad’s savings solely which is the cash part of the will we are executing at the moment and we have obtained some bank statements to see where my dad’s funds sit but only from February, and are in the process of obtaining bank statements from July last year when he asked me to relinquish my power of attorney to then give to my stepmother. We can see that for 2 months there was a transfer of some of his income into his savings account but not enough to cover the fees.
    We feel that these fees should have been paid at the appropriate time and she as perfectly capable of doing so but chose not to and ignored them knowing they were mounting up.
    Would anyone know how we stand with this?
    6 weeks on from dad’s death our family has not grieved. Instead we have been full of anger, frustration and disbelief that he did what he did and she has done what she has done. It fills your head every day.
    Tags: None

  • #2
    So sorry to hear of the problems your family now have.

    I do hope that you and your husband did not relinquish your executorship. Did you? If so, did you reserve the right to be involved later.
    Without retaining control as an executor, the stepmother may have already applied for Probate. Do you know the position of this?

    Once I know your answers, I may be able to add more, but it concerns me that transfers of funds is taking place without Probate being granted..
    Sam

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sam101 View Post
      So sorry to hear of the problems your family now have.

      I do hope that you and your husband did not relinquish your executorship. Did you? If so, did you reserve the right to be involved later.
      Without retaining control as an executor, the stepmother may have already applied for Probate. Do you know the position of this?

      Once I know your answers, I may be able to add more, but it concerns me that transfers of funds is taking place without Probate being granted..
      Sam
      Hi,

      Thank you for your reply.


      No we have not relinquished our executorship. The bank said we did not need probate and whilst she is now an executor since the new will has surfaced she has done nothing at all.Stepmother and her 2 daughters (who are the ones basically calling the shots) do not communicate and whilst she has now said that we now have to communicate with her via her solicitor re the fees owed we have not heard from them either. We are awaiting the previous bank statements to see what she did with dad's money whilst he was in the care home. For the moment we are only executing the cash that dad left and at some point when she has died will have to execute the rest of the will re the property that she can continue to live in according to the will. He had two accounts soley in his name. A current account and a savings account and she was transferring money from the current account to the savings account which doesn't make sense as you cannot set up regular payments from a savings account. How long she has been doing this we will have to wait and see when the rest of the statements come. As before, she made no payments to the care home for 4 months.

      We are also concerned about the memorandum in the will. Would it be legally binding if not mentioned in the will?

      Comment


      • #4
        If you are an executor of the estate in the Will, then was your name not included in the Letters of Administration, which I believe should have been for the application to have been made?

        As an executor you could apply for the Letters of Administration to be stopped if you feel that your fathers wishes are not being administered correctly. You should speak with a solicitor about this if you wish to take action

        It would depend on the value of the estate, but if inheritance tax is not payable, then Probate may not be required but the full value of assets would still need to be submitted,

        A memorandum, or letter of wishes made by your father is not legally binding. It is what he would wish his executors to be aware of and to act upon. However, are you referring to a previous letter of wishes or one made following the last Will made by the Will writers?

        From what you have said, it seems you are not at all happy with the way this is being dealt with, so speak with your solicitor and ask if the Letter of Wishes can be stopped until you, as an executor, have agreed the action that your father would have wanted.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi,

          Thanks again for your reply.

          I think this may have got confused.

          My husband and I were executors in the previous will and still are in this one. Dad added stepmother in the new one as well as adding her as a beneficiary re whatever cash may be left after debts are paid ie funeral etc. She has shown no interest and is now not communicating which is fine as we can just get on with it, so this isn’t about us not being happy about it being administered properly as we have been doing it without her input especially now as she has told us to speak to her thro her solicitor after my husband asked her why she hadn’t paid the care home fees.

          The bank has said that we did not require probate and there is no inheritance tax as it is a small amount and we have been executing the cash part of the will as we should. The property does not come into it until stepmother dies. The cash was released by the bank and is in a new account. The funeral fees have been paid and there are some other things to pay once we organise the interment of ashes etc. Our concern re the cash is that as she did not paid the care home fees we are extremely concerned that this will be considered a debit and they will have to be paid by the remainder of the cash. Whilst it is in effect a debt, it was made a debt by stepmother as she didn’t pay them when dad was alive and should have and as before, she signed a contract to say she would pay and was quite capable of doing this but ignored the debt.

          We had no idea she hadn’t been paying until last week when we received an email from the council who the fees should have been paid to. She didn’t tell us, she ignored the fees and we don’t see why they should come out of the cash.

          The memorandum is with the new will, made by the will writer and concerns a settlement of money from dad’s half of the estate to stepmother’s estate when the property is sold. We feel this is unjust due to information we have.

          Comment


          • #6
            OK, last part first. The memorandum, or letter of wishes is not a legal document and any solicitor or Will writer will tell you. The executors do not have to carry out those wishes and if your father wished the money to be paid over to your stepmother when the property was sold, then he totally failed in his duty not to include that in the actual Will. As such, if such payment is not eventually made, then stepmother may consider she could take action against the Will writer, who is at fault

            The problem you have is that one executor of three is disruptive and not helping. You could apply for that executor to be removed, but your reasons will need to be justified and it will obviously upset your father's widow but it will be up to the court to agree how you are to proceed. The costs will need to be met from the estate.

            You, your husband and your stepmother are all executors of the last Will. As such, if you do not all agree, then the court will ensure that the Will is executed correctly and if you apply to remove your stepmother then matters can proceed.

            If you have further questions, please let us know, but other forum members may wish to offer guidance.

            Comment


            • #7
              Condolences on the loss of your father.

              Obviously the care home fees need to be paid.
              If your step mother signed a contract (as the council alledge) presumably the council will proceed against her, although it is more likely that your father was classed as self funding and your stepmother agreed to arrange payment of the fees.
              In that case the council will expect payment from your father's estate.

              You say probate was not required, and yet there is a property involved.
              Was that property owned solely by your father, or by your father & step mother jointly?
              If the latter was it owned as tenants in common or joint tenants?
              if you don't know you can check on line (if the property was registered) here: https://www.gov.uk/search-property-i...-land-registry (cost £3)

              Regarding your step mother's non cooperation as executor I would not (not yet anyway) start contemplating removal of your step mother as executor.
              From a human point of view your stepmother is possibly finding it hard to cope with the loss of your father, and isn't thinking clearly.
              From a pragmatic point of view consider the cost and difficulty of removing an executor. Costs aren't necessarily paid by the estate as they can be awarded against the losing party
              As probate has not yet been granted you would need to apply to the High Court under section 116 of the Senior Courts Act 1981 to pass over your step mother as personal representative. Such applications aren't granted lightly and should be regarded as a last resort.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sam101 View Post
                OK, last part first. The memorandum, or letter of wishes is not a legal document and any solicitor or Will writer will tell you. The executors do not have to carry out those wishes and if your father wished the money to be paid over to your stepmother when the property was sold, then he totally failed in his duty not to include that in the actual Will. As such, if such payment is not eventually made, then stepmother may consider she could take action against the Will writer, who is at fault

                The problem you have is that one executor of three is disruptive and not helping. You could apply for that executor to be removed, but your reasons will need to be justified and it will obviously upset your father's widow but it will be up to the court to agree how you are to proceed. The costs will need to be met from the estate.

                You, your husband and your stepmother are all executors of the last Will. As such, if you do not all agree, then the court will ensure that the Will is executed correctly and if you apply to remove your stepmother then matters can proceed.

                If you have further questions, please let us know, but other forum members may wish to offer guidance.



                Thanks again for your reply.

                Re the memorandum, thank you for that information. Just to add that as dad and stepmother made reciprocal wills in so far as whoever outlives the other can stay in the property until death or obviously they may move out, go into care etc. in which case the property would be sold and the money held in trust until the death, in this case, of stepmother. I presume if she were to move out before death it would be down to her to take action against the will writer (who is now apparently retired) and after death her executors, who are her two daughters. Her solicitor said she had verified the new will with the memorandum. If her solicitor flags up the legality of the memorandum to stepmother, could stepmother then make a new will and add what is in the memorandum to another will?

                Regarding her being made an executor of dad’s will too in the new will, she has neither been disruptive or helped in that role. She has ignored the fact and made no mention of it, which begs the question why this was done in the first place. We won’t be looking to remove her as an executor, we are just getting on with executing the cash side of the will for the beneficiaries and when it comes to the time of selling the property it will just be myself and my husband as she will have passed on. However as the wife of dad she has, as before, withheld information and lied about things we can prove she lied about. Now saying we have to contact her via her solicitor is because she knows she was in the wrong not paying care home fees, As executors, the cash part of the will is very easy and under control without her input anyway. We only have the problem of her non payment of the fees which will come to a conclusion either way but we suspect we will in the end have to pay them from the estate which I would have to be honest and say will have a large effect on our outlook when it comes to the sale of the property and the memorandum linked to it as we will be digging our heels in.

                The settlement (referenced in the memorandum) we would have to pay from dad’s half of the property is in relation to the amount they both put in as a deposit years ago when they moved in together. Dad paid less than her as he agreed verbally (and told both my husband and brother this) that he would then use the money for both of them as in paying for foreign holidays, cars etc. Which he did in spades.

                There is a 51k equity release (not mentioned in the will or memorandum) they took out at the same time (2018) as making the new wills which we didn’t know about but her family did! We have no idea where all this money has gone as when they took this out in 2018 he was 88 and no longer able to do long flights to New Zealand and flights to other counties in general etc as they had done. This will also have to be paid when the property is sold and we understand that but as far as the settlement re the difference in the amount each paid as a deposit we feel he has more than rectified that. In our opinion he/his estate should not in effect have to pay it to her again.

                Thank you again for your replies, we are not in a position to afford a solicitor so your comments are more than helpful. And apologies my replies always seem like war and peace!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by des8 View Post
                  Condolences on the loss of your father.

                  Obviously the care home fees need to be paid.
                  If your step mother signed a contract (as the council alledge) presumably the council will proceed against her, although it is more likely that your father was classed as self funding and your stepmother agreed to arrange payment of the fees.
                  In that case the council will expect payment from your father's estate.

                  You say probate was not required, and yet there is a property involved.
                  Was that property owned solely by your father, or by your father & step mother jointly?
                  If the latter was it owned as tenants in common or joint tenants?
                  if you don't know you can check on line (if the property was registered) here: https://www.gov.uk/search-property-i...-land-registry (cost £3)

                  Regarding your step mother's non cooperation as executor I would not (not yet anyway) start contemplating removal of your step mother as executor.
                  From a human point of view your stepmother is possibly finding it hard to cope with the loss of your father, and isn't thinking clearly.
                  From a pragmatic point of view consider the cost and difficulty of removing an executor. Costs aren't necessarily paid by the estate as they can be awarded against the losing party
                  As probate has not yet been granted you would need to apply to the High Court under section 116 of the Senior Courts Act 1981 to pass over your step mother as personal representative. Such applications aren't granted lightly and should be regarded as a last resort.




                  Thank you for your reply.

                  Unfortunately, we are more or less resigned to the fact we will have to foot the rather hefty care home bill as she ignored all comms from the council for payment therefore 6 weeks after dad died when you are executing the will and think you know how much money you have for debts ie funeral etc ,as of last week we now know the huge amount owed in fees. If these had been paid we would know exactly what monies we had to deal with instead of now having to be really cautious with the amount of money we subsequently have. This effects the money spent on the interment, headstone etc which is very disappointing. She should have told us at the beginning and chose not to along with a lot of other things.

                  Probate is not required for the ‘cash’ part of the will (the bank told us this in the beginning) as she is able to, via the will, stay in the property until she moves, goes into a care home or death, therefore when it comes to the time of selling the property that is when we will have to apply.

                  Regarding the non cooperation of stepmother. She has basically ignored the fact she is now an executor. This was added to a new will we knew nothing about. She didn’t tell us about this will when dad died and we were told by her/his solicitor over 2 weeks later when we had already started to execute what we though was the last will, confirmed by his/solicitor who was as surprised as us as dad had been with them for 30 years! It begs the question why dad included her after so many years of it just being myself and my husband. That said, he was obsessed with her and he kept this will secret from us after years of being quite open about his wills when he changed them. She made a new will at the same time and these were with a will writer. She knew of it’s existence and didn’t say and we were completely unaware of it. In a nutshell there has been a lot of ‘skullduggery’ going on from the offset. We are not looking to remove her and are just getting on with it, so it’s not a problem, only the large amount of fees owed!

                  From a human aspect I can assure you she and her two daughters are thinking very clearly judging from things that have happened in the last 6 weeks.

                  Between my dad and stepmother our family have no words to describe how angry, disappointed and upset we are with both of them.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry, but you can't just deal with the cash part of an estate and leave the rest dangling!

                    If the will allows her to live in the house until her death or moves, it suggests the house was held as tenants in common and his share of the property will be held in trust for the beneficiaries. That change needs to be registered with Land Registry.
                    If the house was held as joint tenants the property automatically now belongs to her, and regardless of the will she can do with it what she wills!

                    If your fathers estate is not sufficient to cover all his debts and other costs be very careful.
                    Expenses and debts have to be dealt with in a specific order
                    You as executors should not have to make up any shortfall

                    I would suggest as a minimum you obtain a grant of probate and then place a sec27 notice in the Gazette to obtain basic protection before making any distribution.
                    If matters are likely to become "difficult" you might wish to consider purchasing executor's liability insurance Premiums payable out offthe estate as executors expenses

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      DES8 has made a very important point in mentioning the notice in the Gazette for the protection of the executors. After a specific term, this would free the executors from liability of future claims and without it, future debts may fall on the executors, so do this straight away.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Note that you only get the statutory protection from a Sec 27 notice in the Gazette if it is placed AFTER obtaining a grant of probate

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by des8 View Post
                          Sorry, but you can't just deal with the cash part of an estate and leave the rest dangling!

                          If the will allows her to live in the house until her death or moves, it suggests the house was held as tenants in common and his share of the property will be held in trust for the beneficiaries. That change needs to be registered with Land Registry.
                          If the house was held as joint tenants the property automatically now belongs to her, and regardless of the will she can do with it what she wills!

                          If your fathers estate is not sufficient to cover all his debts and other costs be very careful.
                          Expenses and debts have to be dealt with in a specific order
                          You as executors should not have to make up any shortfall

                          I would suggest as a minimum you obtain a grant of probate and then place a sec27 notice in the Gazette to obtain basic protection before making any distribution.
                          If matters are likely to become "difficult" you might wish to consider purchasing executor's liability insurance Premiums payable out offthe estate as executors expenses
                          Hi,

                          The cash is to be done now, in accordance with the will and not left in trust until stepmother dies etc etc. Funeral and interment fees have to be paid and debts settled. The rest of your answer is interesting, thank you and we will digest it. Thanks again.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Your father's care home fees should be payable from your father's estate, and this includes his share of the house (if owned as tenants in common).
                            The fact he has willed it to certain beneficiaries, but setting up a property protection trust in the will, doesn't alter the matter.
                            The council could (and possibly will) obtain a charging order so they obtain payment when the property is eventually sold.
                            It is unlikely they would force a sale of the property and make your step mother homeless

                            Land registry files should be changed to show the trustees as joint owners.
                            This means probate is required,and HMRC forms completed
                            To leave it until your step mother passes only delays the process

                            Comment

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