Refund on a car

**Kati** · 6th November 2014, 13:34:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Hi Dylan, and welcome to LB!
I've gone ahead and removed your other post (you'd had no replies up to now) to avoid confusion

While I cannot give you any advice on this myself, I am sure that you will get lots of help from our knowledgeable Beagles

K x

**des8** · 6th November 2014, 15:46:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Hi, (thinking of getting a push bike?lol)

Your trading standards are correct.
With faulty brakes (vehicle in dangerous condition and unroadworthy?) and engine management light coming on the vehicle is PROBABLY unfit for purpose and therefore you are entitled to reject it.
The vendor will often offer to repair the vehicle, but whilst you don't have to accept his offer, if the repairs required are only minor you might have problems proving the vehicle was not of satisfactory quality.
Here's a template letter you can use to reject the vehicle:

Here's a template letter you can use to reject the vehicle:

[Your address]
[Manager/ Owner]
[Dealership address]
Dear Sir/ Madam
Ref: [registration number of vehicle]
On [date] I purchased, and took delivery of, the above vehicle [make and model] from you. On [date] I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality: [describe the problem].
Section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 requires dealers to supply goods of satisfactory quality. However, the vehicle is clearly unroadworthy. You are therefore in breach of contract.
I am legally entitled to reject the vehicle and to be reimbursed for its full purchase price of [£xx]. I look forward to receiving your cheque for this sum within 14 days. If you fail to reimburse me I shall have no alternative but to issue a claim against you in the county court for recovery of the money without further reference to you.
Yours faithfully,

Only include the last sentence if you are prepared to go to court.

Send it signed for, and retain the PO receipt!

**dylankirby** · 6th November 2014, 16:01:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Thanks Des8 for the response.

Throughout the day I have been trying to get a response from the garage, there last email back states in short that there unhappy I am using a threatening tone in my emails (untrue, down to how they interpret this I guess). They are investigating my complaints and will be touch when they have the relevant information and reports.

Now this is very vauge to say the least of when it will be, I have asked them a couple of times of when this will be (not wanting to call, as want a copy of all communication) but they are just not answering this question.

If push comes to shove yes im prepared to go to the Sheriffs court in Scotland, I believe it will cost me 73.00 to lodge the complaint as its over 3,000.00 but this will slow down the process even more of no money and no car.

I am really dissapointed as I pointed out to the sales guy I have had shocking problems with cars before, and he sold me on reliability of Mercedes etc your paying premium for a Mercedes because they are reliable and stuff, just so fed up

Not that it makes much difference but this is not a big company, run by father and son, about 10 cars ranging from 5,000 - 30,000

Thanks

**des8** · 6th November 2014, 16:14:PM

Re: Refund on a car

If the garage aren't responding you could start a section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act claim against the credit card issuers.
You don't need to wait for the vendor's response to do this.
The Sale of Goods Act 1979 implies terms into any consumer contract that goods must be of "satisfactory quality". The car sold to you was not of satisfactory quality, therefore the dealer is in breach of contract.

**dylankirby** · 6th November 2014, 16:18:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Yeah its always feels like yes im pestering them, but I surely have a right to pester them, I feel like as I said to them earlier that im trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer, but I just do not want to leave it and they say yeah we fixed it here you go, and a month later when it goes wrong again its no longer a reasonable time to reject.

I think I will give them until the morning, call trading standards, followed by credit card company.

**dylankirby** · 6th November 2014, 18:34:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Hi,

Just had a reply from the garage which is below, I do not like the fact conversation (chit chat) they made with us there trying to use against us, and the fact I sent them a email at early hours is rather not relevant.

My reply to this email is beneath there response, as I say I know I have pestered them today but they were vague if they just had said leave it with us were contact you later today.

---------------------------

Hi Dylan

What we said to your partner was the same as we said to you, simply that we would check the car out and take it from there.

The matter of a refund is not as straightforward as you make out. Just because you say the car is not fit for purpose does not make that the case. Likewise, the fact that you are demanding a refund does not mean that you are automatically entitled to one. Your allegation that the car is not fit for purpose is a serious matter that demands proper investigation. Because this car was traded in to us with current road tax before the change in road tax regulations came into effect, we were able to use the car extensively before offering it for sale and we found it to be an excellent car. On checking our records, we actually drove the car more than 400 miles before you purchased it, during which time there were no problems whatsoever. We have never sold a car that was not fit for purpose and indeed we have never had a customer complain in this manner before. For this reason, we have taken our time to fully look into the issues you have raised so that we can deal with your complaint as thoroughly and as fairly as possible.

As for your threatening tone, earlier today you said "You two were great guys, and I think your customer service was excellent, and you at this stage I would even still recommend you if its dealt with in the correct manner" but subsequently, despite the fact that we have not yet been in a position to reply properly to your complaints, you have made repeated references to Trading Standards, said that you will claim the money back through your credit card companies regardless of what we do, said that you will spread negative feedback about us and said that you will be seeking compensation for a hire car if you are not refunded in full by 3:00pm. You yourself described your actions as 'like breaking a nut with a sledgehammer' and this does seem like an accurate analogy.

As we understand it, you are seeking to reject the car as unfit for purpose on two grounds. First, that you feel there is a fault with the brakes, specifically that there is a judder when you apply the brakes and second, that the engine management light came on. Your partner also mentioned to us when we collected the car that you had a message on the dash display that a rear number plate bulb was out, though you have not mentioned this in your emails and texts. We said to you earlier that we would be in touch when we had the relevant reports and we are now in possession of enough information to give you a proper reply.

In relation to the brakes, we extensively road tested the car today and found that there was a barely perceptible shudder under some braking conditions. This was not noticed by us before and was not noticed by you when you test drove the car. We put the car into a garage and had them test the brakes on industry standard equipment. On testing, both the front and back brakes were found to exceed the statutory minimum standards for braking efficiency, the front brakes by 10% and the rear brakes by 9%. The garage visually inspected the discs and pads and advised that the slight shudder is probably due to a very slight warp in one of the discs but that this warping is so slight it cannot be observed by the naked eye. They also road tested the car and advised that the brakes are working correctly and that the minor imperfection complained of does not affect the utility or safety of the braking system. Therefore, we reject your claim that the car is not fit for purpose due to any fault with the brakes.

In relation to the engine management light, this light was not lit when we collected the car and has not come on again today despite driving the car extensively. However, you were very clear that this light came on (and, indeed, you have subsequently emailed us a picture showing the light on the dash), so we arranged for an experienced auto electrician to investigate any historic faults held in the car's computer system. The electrician was able to see that there had indeed been a fault stored and was able to trace this back to a slight leak in a vacuum hose in the engine bay. This is a simple though somewhat labour intensive repair which should be completed by later tomorrow afternoon. This fault did not affect the way the car drove and did not make the car unsafe in any way. Therefore, we reject your claim that the car is not fit for purpose due to the engine management light coming on.

In relation to the rear number plate light, we note that one of the bulbs is out. Neither of the bulbs were out at the time of purchase. The electrician will replace the relevant bulb tomorrow. This is a very minor matter and we are sure that no one would suggest that this could possibly render the car not fit for purpose.

In light of all the above, we reject your claim for a refund on the basis of the car being unfit for purpose. The car is quite plainly fit for purpose and has no significant faults. Indeed, any reasonable person would agree that the car is in absolutely superb condition, especially considering it is more than eight years old and has covered more than 85,000 miles.

It seems to us that, rather than there being anything significantly wrong with the car, you simply have buyer's remorse and wish that you hadn't bought the car in the first place. You mentioned several times to us when you were buying the car that this was a large amount of money to you and, after you paid a deposit, told us that you were waiting on a new credit card coming in the post to allow you to pay the balance. You specifically mentioned that up to now you have driven Peugeot, Renault and Vauxhall cars and that this was your first time buying what might be considered a higher level of car and that you were somewhat concerned that a Mercedes might be a lot more expensive to maintain than the type of cars you've had in the past. You also mentioned on collecting the car that you were disappointed to not have done as well as you had hoped playing poker the previous night and we cannot help but wonder if you are just regretting putting such a large amount of money on your credit cards.

We pride ourselves on supplying quality cars to our customers and on being friendly and easy to deal with at all times. We enjoyed speaking with you and your partner previously but we are deeply disappointed in the way that you have conducted yourself today. Rather than talk to us in an amiable way to find a satisfactory resolution to your concerns you have bombarded us with messages (a total of 17 messages via email from 00:42 this morning until 17:18 this evening) falsely claiming that the car has serious problems and threatening various methods of recourse through Trading Standards, your credit card companies and, presumably, the Courts with your reference to seeking compensation. For our part, we feel we have attended to the issues you raised as quickly and professionally as possible.

Although we feel that you have treated us totally unfairly, we liked you and your partner and we do not wish for you to be unhappy with your car or dissatisfied with our service. Despite our findings that your claim for a refund is not justified, we will be happy to discuss buying your car back from you. This is a very different matter from being forced under threat to give you your money back but may be a solution that will be expedient and satisfactory for both of us. We will contact you tomorrow afternoon when the vacuum hose has been replaced and can discuss this with you then.

Best regards
Gary

---------------------------

Hi

I did not do well at poker are you serious here?

I bought in to a £50 event and came 4th for £540 turning a profit, I said I did not do as well as I hoped, I think you heard what you wanted from that conversation.

I explained extensively to you before I purchased the car that I did not want to buy a car that would entail problems due to the previous problems I've had when buying a car!

Yes £5000 is a lot of money to us, there is no question to that, but buyers remorse is certainly not the reason I want a refund. The fact that we didn't come back the same day and make the purchase after we test drove the car certainly shows it was not a impulse purchase.

The reason for wanting a refund is simple we feel if a car can develop a few faults within two days of having it then it's more than likely to develop a lot more. It may have been a lot of money to us, but we have not exactly tied up all our money in to this purchase, it's not like we're short on cash, not even close, so your assumption is totally false.

You have had the car tested by someone you have found to diagnose the vehicle, does that sound like an impartial diagnosis to you?

And yes going back to the analogy of cracking a nut with a sledgehammer, that certainly is the case, however I was never rude in my emails, it really is down to how you have interpreted the messages. As my colleagues who I have been discussing this matter and reading my emails also agree there not rude. None of my emails have been intended to be rude or threatening.

Yes you said to me earlier you would be in touch, it would of been nice if you could of given a incline as to when, even if you had said to me, that you would contact us tomorrow it would of been something, not vague leaving in limbo wondering what was going on.

With regards to spreading negative feedback that is not accurate. I have said if my issues were not resolved I may share my experience, which I think is fair if I am left to be unhappy.

So there is a warp in one of the discs they think, and your happy for that to be left this way?.... The bulb was not mentioned by me because it's just a bulb!.... The engine management light coming on is concerning to us and I think if you just bought a car it would be conceding for you too! Vacuum Hoses can be tricky and lead to many different areas, we know as we had this as our first diagnostic on our Peugeot that went spectacularly wrong, and they never did get to the bottom of the fault many of thousands of pounds later!

So in regards to you putting this down to simple issues, I disagree. I would still reject the car.

It's not about the money it's about not wanting a car that's just going to be a money pit full of issues.

Kind Regards

Dylan

**dylankirby** · 6th November 2014, 19:18:PM

Re: Refund on a car

I really do not want to sell the car back to them, as I'm not at fault here.

I don't mind waiting to go to court etc as I say it's not like I need this money urgently.

what would people suggest here? oh and these guys are so innocent that they dont mind forging my signature on the log book to tax it as I wasn't there. Really frustrated by this company

**MissFM** · 6th November 2014, 19:31:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Hi Dylan

My suggestion (FWIW) would be to backpedal furiously on the threats and suggest to them that they take the car, you have your money back, no blame and no further action either side. It does sound a bit as if they've got their bottom in their hand over the imputation that they've somehow been less than honest but are also looking for a compromise that suits both sides.

Good luck, anyway x

**dylankirby** · 6th November 2014, 19:56:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Hi

thanks for the reply. I can see what your saying and thanks for the input. Only thing is if I back pedal maybe they will use it against me, or feel stronger that I'm doing it as I have remorse for buying the car (which isn't true). I am not looking to lose money on the car and sell it a a lower price than purchased.

Thanks

**des8** · 6th November 2014, 19:59:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Oh dear "slight warping on a disc" oh dear. That old wives tale again! (http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths)
Most unlikely, more probably slight uneven pad deposits on the discs leading to the judder, otherwise it will be other parts that are worn.
If the discs have warped under normal road conditions they must have become quite thin and need replacing.
I don't suppose you know if they used a dial test indicator, the only accurate way of seeing if the pads are uneven.
I would argue however that the brakes should not shudder at all, and the fact they do on a £5000 car means that car is not of satisfactory quality.
However the car was faulty, by their own admission. Therefore not of satisfactory quality. Therefore you can reject it, or you may request repair.
Here's a motor trade take on the law:http://www.lawgistics.co.uk/legal-ar...ing-a-used-car

To be honest you do seem to be rejecting the vehicle 'cos you are concerned it may breakdown in future.
"The reason for wanting a refund is simple we feel if a car can develop a few faults within two days of having it then it's more than likely to develop a lot more"
"It's not about the money it's about not wanting a car that's just going to be a money pit full of issues"
My experience is that all cars breakdown, and only a boat is a bigger open pit for cash.
I personally drive old classics as i find them easier to maintain and repair than modern vehicles (and more fun:tinysmile_twink_t2

, but I'd be interested if you find a make that doesn't breakdown and is cheap to run.

**dylankirby** · 6th November 2014, 20:06:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Thanks again for they reply, and having the patience to read the essay I posted above.

I have no doubt I have been a annoyance to this garage. However it just stems from not taking quick enough action previously and getting fobbed off from a previous garage.

so would you say from the response I still have the grounds to pursue this matter to the courts and a good chance of winning?

I really do not want this car back, I just have such a bad gut feeling about it.

And seriously thanks guys you have all been super helpful and welcoming.

**MissFM** · 6th November 2014, 20:07:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Originally posted by dylankirby View Post

Hi

thanks for the reply. I can see what your saying and thanks for the input. Only thing is if I back pedal maybe they will use it against me, or feel stronger that I'm doing it as I have remorse for buying the car (which isn't true). I am not looking to lose money on the car and sell it a a lower price than purchased.

Thanks

No - I quite agree - but if you both become entrenched there doesn't seem to be a palatable way forward. Unless you want something other than your money back, quickly, it just seemed a feasible route to explore. They clearly want things to be amicable and so do you but the only way this can happen is if they give you your money back, take the car and are, at the same time, allowed to save face. IMVHO.

The worrying thing that slightly suggests itself is that they might be operating on such a hand-to-mouth basis that they can't actually refund you as the money has disappeared into a cash-flow black hole, which would be awkward. :confused2:

**MissFM** · 6th November 2014, 20:12:PM

Re: Refund on a car

Whoops Des - crossed again :eyebrows: x

To Dylan - Des knows what he's talking about! xxx

**des8** · 6th November 2014, 20:26:PM

Re: Refund on a car

All court action is a bit of a lottery, and the general advice is to avoid it if possible.
It is stressful for most people, especially if it's a new experience.

However IMO you have a valid claim.
You purchased an up market car.
It developed two faults in a very short time.
The vendor admits this. ( Although this does not affect your claim he has repaired the leak in the vacuum hose, but is leaving the vehicle with a shudder in the braking system!)
You have returned the car, rejecting it and asking for a full refund.
You did not ask for repairs, and although it was offered you did not accept its return with one repair and one non repair.

Refund on a car

Refund on a car

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