REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

[Exarkun]

Hi there

Here's my situation

06/09/2014
I purchased a Used Car. 2005 Mazda 6 with 125,000 miles on it. The purchase was from an independent car dealer. £2400 was paid.

All was fine on the test drive. Once the car had been payed for (Visa Debit) I drove the car and filled it with fuel. then drove to the post office to tax it. Driving then commenced onto country roads and starting to enjoy the drive home. I had gone less than 2 miles from the post office (and less than 5 miles since paying for the car) the car started to overheat.

I pulled over immediately to see what was going on. Coolant was low. At this point I rang the seller immediately to inform him of the situation and that as I had been practically nowhere I wanted to return the car for a refund. The sellers response was to bring the car back on Monday and we will take a look at it then. It was gone 17:00 and there would be no-one there until Monday. I told the seller that this is no good as I was not willing to drive the car any distance as I didn't want to cause any damage. I no longer had confidence in the car and wanted to return it for refund. Again he said we would talk about refunds on Monday. He said to leave the car outside another place of business close to his own (a safe place) and leave the keys through a letter box somewhere (I couldn't remember where he said). After the car had cooled I managed to get some water and re-fill the coolant as best I could. I then drove the car to take it back. I did have a further call from him saying that his mechanic had done a coolant flush and there 'could be a pipe loose or something'.

08-09-2014
Monday at 09:00 I had a call from the dealer asking where the key was. As I didn't know where to leave it I still had the key. He wasn't happy that I hadn't left it for him. He said he wouldn't be around but his employee would. After we had dropped off the kids at school we went to the dealer.

We spoke to his other employee when we arrived and explained that we didn't want the car and wanted our money back. His response was that they did not know of the fault and therefore had a right to fix the car. besides '<the business owner> isn't here and he has the supervisor card so couldn't issue a refund.

I was surprised that he had the right to attempt a repair and we agreed to his mechanic at least taking a look at the vehicle. He drove the car over to his mechanic and I asked if it was OK if I came along too. They had no problems with this.

The mechanic refilled the car with water and stated that the problem may have been a air lock. I didn't want to stand over him while he was patiently refilling the radiator and went to make some phone calls. The mechanic had been on a test run and came back stating that the car was fine now. He did say though that it was a problem with the radiator cap and that we should buy a new one. Again I didn't know what to do about that and off we went. We spoke to the dealer who said that we could come back to claim the cost of the radiator cap. At £7 for a radiator cap it didn't seem worth driving back to get the £7. We were surprised that the mechanic said that we should buy the radiator cap. The radiator cap was replaced and I checked to see if there was still coolant in the radiator. There was.

We then proceeded on our journey home. This time going on the motorway (4 miles prior to motorway 3 mile of motorway). Once again the car started to overheat. I pulled off the motorway and stopped the car immediately

We called the dealer again stating that it was overheating again. He asked our location and immediately drove over. He was initially apologising for the situation and he (the owner) and another guy started looking the car over for why it was failing. He was saying that the car was fine and he had personally drove the car from <location 50 miles away>. They spotted a leak in the radiator bottom hose. He started talking of taking the car back and us collecting it when it was fixed. When we started again talking of refunds that's when his attitude completely changed. He was quite a tall guy and quite intimidating in his manner. Comments such as 'I am doing you a favor here if you want I can just leave you here now and I will see you in court and it will take months and months'. He did say that he would take it away and get it fixed. and 'if I can drive it the 50 mile journey to deliver it then it was ok'. I wasn't happy about this and actually wanted our money back and to walk away. It's my wifes car and she agreed to him fixing and delivering the car. Feeling frustrated and a little intimidated.

09/09/2014
Car was delivered to our house while we were at work. They key was through our door. He would not deliver it to my place of work (2 miles from home) I would have preferred to take a look before he drove away. Not the end of the world and generally fine with this.

Took a look in the coolant bottle and noted that it was filled with water only and no antifreeze. Not completely happy but thought we would see how it goes.

At night after kids had gone to bed etc I took the car our for a drive to see how it goes. All fine around town. Headed out on the motorway. Temperature gauge was reasonable at first then after a little while the temperature began to rise. Before it got the the red it did come down again. The car did this a few times while out on my journey. At least it wasn't going sky high and overheating. Stopped at a motorway services and checked the expansion tank. No signs of leakage at least. I wasn't completely happy with the temperature situation but thought maybe that's how they run on just water (no antifreeze) or a peculiarity of the car.

09-09-14 - 14-09-14
Mostly town driving where the temperature seems fairly constant. When on the motorway Temperature gauge continues with behavior outlined. Car runs fine otherwise.

14-09-14
Found deposits of oil under the radiator cap. Determine it will be best to get the car checked by independent reputable garage.

18-09-14
Car inspected by garage and found that the cooling system is becoming pressurised by combustion gasses. Head gasket failure.

This is where I am up to. I don't want the car anymore and want to know where to go to from here. Can anything be done? I have read all sorts of things online regarding sales of goods act 1979 and different experiences that other people have had and I just don't know what to do. The car is not reliable and want to know where I stand before we talk to the dealer again. He is quite an intimidating person and want to have my facts straight before we do anything else. From speaking to the independent garage they say that the pressurisation would explain the radiator cap issue and the leaking coolant pipe. I feel that from the advice I have received from the mechanic that the head gasket was probably busted before I bought the car.

Sorry if I have put in too much detail. Does he have a right to fix it? Can I effectively demand my money back? What should I do?

[des8]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

HI and welcome

Technically he has the right to attempt to fix the car,
BUT he has already had two attempts, and quite frankly if they couldn't diagnose a blown head gasket I wouldn't want them attempting to put it right.
When that sort of problem arises the first thing a half competent mechanic would do is sniff the coolant. You can smell the exhaust fumes and know for starters there is at best a blown head gasket. Probably now has a warped head as well, and possibly a damaged block. Also running a modern engine without antifreeze is not recommended, as the antifreeze contains inhibitors to protect the engine.
It is possible the head gasket blew on your first journey .... it happens, but is still down to the garage

Here's a template letter you can use to reject the vehicle:


[Your address]
[Manager/ Owner]
[Dealership address]
Dear Sir/ Madam
Ref: [registration number of vehicle]
On [date] I purchased, and took delivery of, the above vehicle [make and model] from you. On [date] I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality: [describe the problem].
Section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 requires dealers to supply goods of satisfactory quality. However, the vehicle is clearly unroadworthy. You are therefore in breach of contract.
I am legally entitled to reject the vehicle and to be reimbursed for its full purchase price of [£xx]. I look forward to receiving your cheque for this sum within 14 days. If you fail to reimburse me I shall have no alternative but to issue a claim against you in the county court for recovery of the money without further reference to you.
Yours faithfully,

Send it signed for, and retain the PO receipt!

[Exarkun]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

Thanks for that.

At the weekend we called to let them know of the problems and they asked that we take the car back to them. He wanted his mechanic to do a pressure test on it.

The car was dropped off on Saturday. I was hoping to give him the letter in person rejecting the car but there was nobody there. They had apparently closed an hour early. So as there was no letterbox the key was left with a neighboring business (At his request) and the letter left on the passenger seat.

In addition to this, today we sent another copy of the letter recorded delivery signed for.

I guess I am anticipating him contacting us to say that either they can't find a problem or they have tried to fix the problems again.

[des8]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

Assuming he doesn't accept your rejection, and you are still unhappy with the vehicle, before going to court you could try Trading Standards.
Sometimes they'll have a quiet word:tinysmile_twink_t2: with the garage and sort it a lot quicker and less stressful than court action.

[Exarkun]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

Well, he's had the car for over a week and the letter for for nearly as long and we have not heard a single word from him. I would have thought we would have heard something.

[des8]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

Have a word with your local trading standards office.
They may already have a file on this outfit.

[Exarkun]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

I have been in touch with Citizens advice throughout the whole process. Sometimes we have had a bit of conflicting info. Yesterday, as we had not heard anything yet I again contacted them, they said that trading standards do not deal with consumer issues anymore.

Anyhow, today we received a letter from the dealer.

The basic jist is that he acknowledges that we are entitled to "reject the car with a fault but we (the seller) also have the rights to fix the car". He has fixed it again and we can come and collect the car.

He states that their mechanic had found no exhaust gasses but that the car was overheating. The car was then sent to a coolant specialist who asked the history of the vehicle. Prior to us receiving the car it had an oil cooler problem where it had cracked and let oil into the cooling system. Prior to us buying the car they had fixed the oil cooler and flushed the coolant system, they knew there were traces of oil in the cooling system but didn't think it would cause a problem. The coolant specialist took the radiator off to test and found that the radiator was 50% blocked. That was what has been causing the cooling and pressure problem. A new radiator has now been fitted. No head gasket problem has been found.

He states that he has driven the car for a couple of days and found that there is no problem with the car whatsover now. He has also ordered some parts to fix a couple of other things as a good will gesture. Boot struts needed replacing and the switches for the power windows.

It seems to me that he has indeed admitted in this letter that he sold us a car of not satisfactory quality.

We still are not happy to have the car back as he has repaired the car 3 times previously (once prior to our purchase and twice after) and these repairs have not been of satisfactory quality. We are not confidant that further damage may have been caused by the poor repairs that could manifest itself in the future.

Are we still entitled to reject the vehicle and receive our money back? He did not contact us at all prior to the replacement of the radiator and we did not agree to this repair. Do we have to accept the vehicle with this lastest repair as fair resolution to the problem?

I would appreciate any advice

[des8]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

Re trading standards:
Citizens advice are correct that Trading Standards INSTITUTE do not deal with consumer complaints, but if you have a complaint about illegal sales activity you can report it to your local trading standards office (normally in local government offices)> See this link, last updated 4/9/2014: https://www.gov.uk/find-local-trading-standards-office

You rejected the vehicle. You could have opted for repair, but clearly did not.
The trader can offer repair, but in this instance he repaired without advising you, AFTER you had clearly rejected the vehicle.
If you reject the vehicle within a reasonable time (and viewing the time line in your first post this is a given) you have the right to reject the vehicle for a full refund (and even claim for your costs).
This link to a legal website for the motor trade makes for interesting reading http://www.lawgistics.co.uk/legal-ar...ing-a-used-car

[Exarkun]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

So... it continues.

We responded to the seller. We re-asserted the fact that we had rejected the vehicle in our last letter, also that we had not authorised any repairs and that we still require our money back. We gave them 7 days to respond.

Yesterday his time was up. We have not heard anything from the seller whatsoever. We did however do a search online last Wednesday and found that he has it up for sale again. We did hope this was a sign that he had decided to send us our money back but as I said. Nothing.

All these facts combined and I must admit I am getting really quite annoyed now.

Can he sell what is effectively our property? Or is it no longer ours as we have said that we have rejected it? It feels tantamount to theft!

[des8]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

As you have rejected the vehicle it is now his, he just hasn't returned your cash.
The fact he is advertising it indicates he has accepted the return.

If your cash isn't forthcoming soon you could issue a Letter before Action, and commence court action.
Or less stressfully you could request a chargeback from your debit card issuer, as long as you do it within 120 days of purchase.

Not a legal remedy like a section 75 claim, but a scheme run by Visa.

[Exarkun]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

We raised the claim with the bank so fingers crossed we can get it resolved that way. The people on the phone at the bank didn't sound that helpful though.

We have now received another letter from the seller:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We have received your follow up letter of complaint regarding the mazda you bought of us..

We are sorry you have lost confidence in the car but as we stated we are allowed to rectify the problem and if it makes you feel better we will take the car to Mazda themselves to get a health report done on the car to clarify it has no further problems..

You also state that you have the right to reject the car wich is also true but we have the right to offer you a different car if theres anything on our website that takes your fancy.

We wish it was as easy as just giving you a refund bat at the moment we dont have the sufficent funds and are in the process of dissolving the company and in the process of liquidating the company due to us looking at the company going bankrupt which means the business may well not be here after christmas.

We will help as much as possible and i recap if you would like a health report from mazda or to come and take a different car then please get in tough..

With regards
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So at this point I am really hoping the bank can get our money back. I feel like he may well be trying to infer that if we take him to court he will just dissolve the company so there will be no entity for which to sue. Or am I better off upping the ante, sending a letter before action ASAP?

Other people we know have suggested getting the car back or another one of similar value. I don't want to get another car from them as we would then be potentially back to square one. Also as regards the original car I know that his mechanics have not been thorough in there approach previously.

[des8]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

I wonder if the bank are aware the company is in difficulty.
There could be a problem with chargeback if there is insufficient cash in the companies' bank account. If it is not there it can't be pulled back.
Also the garage could dispute it.

Do you believe them when they say they are facing bankruptcy and about to liquidate the company?
If they are it will be pointless taking them to court as when you win you will still only be a creditor of the company. There's no way you could get a case through the courts and enforced in the time available
If they are already insolvent (ie cannot cover their debts) and continue to trade there could be severe financial implications for the directors, so I am a bit surprised they would advertise this fact to a creditor.
Hopefully others with more knowledge of this type of situation will join in.

It seems you are going to have to choose between the risk of them going bankrupt and not recovering your money or taking the car back.

[Exarkun]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

I don't know if I should believe him or not.

I do know that in the past week he has newly listed 7 cars. I don't know if that is an indication of anything. One of which was an Audi Q7 that I am sure that I saw him driving in September. (I was under the impression that it was his own) Along with a Freelander two Renault espace's, a BMW 6 and a Land Cruiser.

[des8]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

If these newly up for sale vehicles have been bought in by the company it doesn't look like it is short of finance.
Could be though they are being sold on commission.

[Exarkun]

Re: REJECTING A CAR - Clarity needed

It's hard to tell. I've a theory that the Audi and the BMW could well be company assets that the owner has had use for then chose to sell up to make up the cash. Most of his vehicles go up to around £3000 then these two cost significantly more. (10k and 18k)

I've not been watching too closely but it looks to me like he has reduced the asking price for a whole bunch of the vehicles he has for sale. I know that he has knocked £500 off the Mazda in question.

Until we at least initially hear back from the bank I will be keeping a close eye on what is on his website. I want to see if I can tell how much he is selling.

I thought it very strange that he would tell me about the companies 'difficulties' though. I thought they usually keep that sort of thing very quiet.

I've learnt a few lessons from this whole saga.