Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

[CleverClogs]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

Hey CC, yep spotted that BEFORE they even ticketed me as I know this is a privately managed parking area, so any "tickets" are meaningless
As PT can attest, we have already had fun with our local council over parking in town and the lack of enforceable lines and signs..

But the point was not that the "tickets" were meaningless or unenforceable but that, by seeking to represent them as Penalty Charge Notices, the "tickets" could actually be illegal.

[bluebottle]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

I'm astounded. I really expected you to have spotted the significance of their silly flim-flam.

On the outside of the bogus parking ticket:

The significance of making the false assertion that improper removal of the bogus ticket "is an offence" is that the parking parasites have thereby suggested or stated that their invoice is an official Penalty Charge Notice.

Perhaps your local Trading Standards wallahs might wish to prosecute the parking parasites?

I believe, CC, that is something Trading Standards can deal with. I know that, in Birmingham, the City Council's Trading Standards Department prosecuted a wheel clamping firm. There is a video on YouTube showing the firm's tow truck, itself, being towed away on the instructions of TSOs and West Midlands Police. I believe those who ran the firm were prosecuted for Blackmail and Fraud.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

CB - If the car park is Pay & Display, as you know, all the PPC is entitled to receive is any parking fee that is payable. Penalty charges are not enforceable, as Parking Eye, OPC and Vehicle Control Services have found to their cost.

In contract law, who would be liable to pay such a "fee"?

Would it be the driver of the vehicle, the owner of the vehicle or the registered keeper of the vehicle?

[bluebottle]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

But the point was not that the "tickets" were meaningless or unenforceable but that, by seeking to represent them as Penalty Charge Notices, the "tickets" could actually be illegal.

Strangely, it is not illegal for a PPC employee to carry a pad of tickets around in their pocket. However, should they then issue a ticket, an interesting legal situation arises as, depending on the circumstances, both the PPC and their employee are at risk of prosecution. If a PPC PCN is identical to or which any reasonable person might take be be a genuine PCN, as issued by a local authority, there is a potential case under Section 2(1), Fraud Act 2006 (Fraud by False Misrepresentation) against both the PPC and their employee and Section 6, Fraud Act 2006 (Being in Possession of Articles for Use in Connection with Fraud) against the employee.

[bluebottle]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

In contract law, who would be liable to pay such a "fee"?

Would it be the driver of the vehicle, the owner of the vehicle or the registered keeper of the vehicle?

The driver. It's the same in the case of a PCN issued by a local authority.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

I believe, CC, that is something Trading Standards can deal with. I know that, in Birmingham, the City Council's Trading Standards Department prosecuted a wheel clamping firm. There is a video on YouTube showing the firm's tow truck, itself, being towed away on the instructions of TSOs and West Midlands Police. I believe those who ran the firm were prosecuted for Blackmail and Fraud.

Indeed there is:

The clip does not, however, record that the buggers were gaoled for a couple of years - link

[bluebottle]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

He was lucky to get four years for Conspiracy to Defraud. He could have got the maximum ten years. He got off lightly.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

He was lucky to get four years for Conspiracy to Defraud. He could have got the maximum ten years. He got off lightly.

Perhaps his gaol time was reduced because of all the help he gave in other - completely unrelated - cases?

Alternatively, perhaps that is a rumour that should be started?

It should make his gaol experience less tedious.

[bluebottle]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

Perhaps his gaol time was reduced because of all the help he gave in other - completely unrelated - cases?

Alternatively, perhaps that is a rumour that should be started?

It should make his gaol experience less tedious.

Judges have to comply with Sentencing Guidelines when sentencing a person found guilty of or who has pleaded guilty to an offence at law. Discount is given for a guilty plea, any time spent on remand in custody and any assistance given to the police in clearing up other crimes or providing leads which result in the apprehension of other offenders. However, the judge also has to take into account any harm or potential harm the offender and his family could be exposed to as a result of dropping other offenders in the brown and smelly stuff. Contrary to common belief, judges have to obey the law when dealing with offenders who are brought before them. A number of judges have publicly vented their frustration at having their hands tied legally by laws that prevent them from passing a just sentence.

[labman]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

Driver for Parking Charge Notices, Reigistered Keeper for PCN's and FPN's. In the case of a Parking Charge Notice, there is absolutely no obligation for the registered keeper to tell anyone who the driver was. Obviously if cameras are around it would be very unwise to claim you were not driving, and clearly I would never condone lying anyway.

[miliitant]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

You're absolutely right. Under civil law, you can only be in the same position you were in before an alleged tort occurred. There is case law covering this dating back to 1915.


any chance of a link to case/statute law on this

regards

[wales01man]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

Iteresting comment about driver being captured on camera presuming the camera was operated by the local authorith or someone not the pcn company would hey have any legal right to obtain the footage showing the driver?

[bluebottle]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

Iteresting comment about driver being captured on camera presuming the camera was operated by the local authorith or someone not the pcn company would hey have any legal right to obtain the footage showing the driver?

It would create a very interesting situation regarding data protection compliance.

[bluebottle]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

You're absolutely right. Under civil law, you can only be in the same position you were in before an alleged tort occurred. There is case law covering this dating back to 1915.


any chance of a link to case/statute law on this

regards

The relevant case law is Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd -v- New Garage & Motor Co. Ltd 1915.

www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/1914/1.html

The basic thrust of the judgement in the case stated is that any damages you claim can only put you in the same position you were in before any alleged loss was incurred/tort committed. In short, you must have suffered actual loss and be able to quantify that loss. Consumer Protection legislation deals with penalty clauses in consumer contracts. With PPCs operating on private land, a lot of the demand-o-grams and threat-o-grams they send out are, in my considered judgement, difficult, if not, impossible to justify or enforce as Parking Eye, OPC and Vehicle Control Services have found to their cost. Some PPCs are not beyond encouraging and instructing their employees to brazenly lie to motorists, as I have discovered.

[miliitant]

Re: Didn't think private parking guys worked early on a Sunday...

thanks again bluebottle

bookmarked

and as its case law, it would take precedence on any companies own t&c