contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

[atonu]

I’ve got a PCN by TfL for contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway) recorded by CCTV at 4:10pm. It was a loading bay operational between 10am – 4pm.
I think the loading bay markings are wrong because such bays should be always one rectangle outlined by dotted lines. In my case, the loading bay consists of two rectangles – one long one with another small one – without any separating line in between. I parked in the small one. There was only one parking restriction sign near the longer box.
I’d be grateful if somebody can tell me if the loading bay markings are right or wrong.
Many thanks

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

can you possibly post a picture of said offending bay? i know its a pain, but I have a trucker hubby and I can have him look at it. also we have a retired policeman on here, and if he doesnt know what a loading bay looks like.. im moving

If the loading bay was in operation 10am-4pm and you were there at 4:10 then the markings are irrelevent in my way of thinking.. what was restriction after this, if it says no stopping then markings or no markings I think the ticket is valid at it was after the hours stated on the sign..

[Bill-K]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

I'm not sure on the legalities, but it looks like the PCN itself may be your defence !!! If the restrictions only applied until 1600, and the CCTV was at 1610, then there is no case to answer, IMHO.

But - do as Puff says - take pictures - loads of them. Of the signs, the road markings, the surrounding scenery even - because this is your vital evidence.

Then - let's see what Puff's contacts can come up with. Look out for my auld enemy Bluebottle. He's a retired copper - and a b100dy good one, dammit !!!

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

If i know London half as well as I think I do, it will be the loading bay will be ok till x hrs and then it reverts to no parking at all, a red route is literally no parking at any time and some go through to half past stupid, but please post up a pic of said loading bay and I will show it to Hubby.

[charitynjw]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

Hi atonu, & welcome.

The rules regarding red route signage/road markings can be found in the Traffic Signs Manual, chapter 3:10

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...chapter-03.pdf

Again, I'm no expert, but I believe that many PCN's have been successfully disputed due to incorrect details.

An example of discussions concerning this can be found at
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversio...hp/t36459.html

Please do check out Puffrose's other half's & Bluebottle's future posts, & keep us updated - it's all grist to the mill!

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

this is a normal sign for a loading bay in London on a red route, ignore the times its a random google red route loading bay sign, you need to check the whole sign, cos if the red route it in operation after the loading bay ends.. your knackered basically!

[labman]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

In addition to Charity's link, I believe the legislation governing this called something like The Traffic Signs and General Directions Act 2002 - if you google that it will come up with the right legislation, though I may have got the name slightly wrong.

This sets out exactly what size the letters should be, what font size, length of lines for the bay etc.... I now quite a few people who have used this piece of legislation to escape their fine.

However, as Bill said, if the offence occurred at 16;10 and the restriction ended at 16:00 I would agree there is no case to answer. The obvious place to just double check this is The Highway Code - it's over 30 years since I took my test, so best to check.

That legislation is excellent for this though.

[bluebottle]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

It would be a good idea to ask to see a copy of the Traffic Order relating to the Red Route in question. This will state all the necessary information regarding applicable times, road(s) affected, distances of the road(s) affected, etc.. If TfL cannot produce such an order or refuse to produce such an order, I would start getting suspicious that the PCN is not only unenforceable, but illegal, also. Also, if the restriction ends at 16:00 and the CCTV screengrab shows the time as 16:10, the PCN is unenforceable.

If, on the other hand, TfL can produce a valid Traffic order and the loading bay was operational up to 16:00 only, unfortunately, they have you by the gonads and the PCN is enforceable.

[labman]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

I don't agree with you BB on this one. They don't necessarily have him. There are frequently errors on either the signage itself, the road markings or the paperwork which mean the offender can escape on a technicality. Agreed, it means physically going to the location again with a ruler and a measuring tape to check all the signage and markings, but the people who do these very often make mistakes. All you need is for a line to be a couple of inches too short or long and you have an argument.

I knnow of someone who fought a speeding offence on a technicality of this sort, and has since become quite an amateur expert in the field. With his speeding offence, a matter of a few feet led to the council having to refund i think about £1.5 million in speeding fines and contact the DVLA to remove points from licences, let alone any subsequent law suits from people who may have lost their licence or job because of the unlawful fine.

It is sometimes worth being extremely pedantic over these things. Every tiny detail about signage, markings, size, correct font etc... is laid down in statute.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

Which borough were you in hun? Islington is notorious for its PCNs the wardens are known to stand at the meters at 659am and the second 7am hits out come the books and the tickets flow!

[atonu]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

First of all, I thank everybody for your comments.
I know I am at fault for parking after 4pm in a loading bay.
You are right that I should post a photo of the actual markings and I think they are incorrect. However, the image is in jpeg stored on my computer and this forum allows me to insert images only as http:// links.
Any idea how can I post this image to this forum.

[Curlyben]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

I think the whole loading bay is immaterial as the contravention talks about RED ROUTES not loading bay.

So simple question, Were you parked on a posted Red Route ?

[labman]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

Then next not so simple questions, were the markings and signage compliant with the law?

[bluebottle]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

I would recommend asking to see a copy of the Traffic Order. In a lot of cases, it has been found that no Traffic Order was in force or the Traffic Order was defective in some way. Certainly, check the specification and construction of the signage, etc., against statutory provisions, as Labman recommends. If the signage, etc., doesn't comply, TfL can go spin.

[atonu]

Re: contravention: 46 : Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

As I am new to this forum, I had some initial difficulty to attach the image (IMG_0002.jpg) sent by TfL as recorded on their CCTV.
It shows that the bay has two parts, one is wider. However, they are not separated by any line vertical to the kerb, i.e, there is no line of separation in between.
Pl. comment on this.