illegal repo what am i owed?

[bluebottle]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

they did take the insurance payment, they have written to me on several occasions stating that they did so as they were reliant on the first pament i made being "resolicited Gap insurance" in order for me to be below one third paid.

what they basically say is that the first payment made on my finance arrangement became gap insurance once i agreed to it.

Hello Cyril,

What is this GAP insurance? I can't say I've ever heard of it.

Bluebottle

[cyril82]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

GAP is guaranteed assest protection, it basically covers any shortfall between what you owe to the finance company and what the vehicle insurance pay out in the event of a total loss accident.

i.e. there is £6000 still owing on the finance agreement, the vehicle is a write off, the vehicle insurance say the vehicle is only worth £4000 then the gap policy would cover the remaining £2000 so that you are not left with any outstanding finance.

[cyril82]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

ok, i decided to call the insurance company and record the call. i asked about the nill payment amounts and blank acceptance date on the documents they sent me and the claimed that it because they never sold me the policy and i never paid them anything, as i paid the finance company not them.

the insurance company further stated that the were not paid a penny (their words) in relation to my individual policy as they just take a lump sum off the finance company each month/year etc and then allow them to put whoever they like on cover.

so i contact the finance company and ask them to explain what happens after i pay them for gap insurance and the tell me that the then send over my details to the insurance company who fulfill my policy, i.e send out all the policy docs upon accpetance, then the finance company pay the insurance company for my individual policy (along with others at the end of the billing cycle) but they definately pay for my policy specifically, which the insurance say they don't

Who's telling lies, and how do i find out?

i have spoken to the FSA who think i should take it back to the ombudsman but to be honest the ombudsman accepted every lie that this finance company told them last time without ever asking them for proof to support their claims while in every instance where i claimed something had happened or was not right i was asked for proof, which at the time i didn't have, so i think that if i took this matter to the ombudsman service they wouldn't uphold the complaint unless i can prove something was not right with the policy, i'm close to having that proof i just cant seem to get over that last hurdle, i think instructing a solicitor ma be the only way forward.

[bluebottle]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

Hello Cyril,

The fact that Close Finance have a history of repeated and serious breaches of the DPA says a lot. Have you checked your bank statements yet to see if Close Finance took payments from you? This is the most important thing you have to and must do. Once you know what and how many payments Close Finance took from you, it will be a lot easier to guide you in the right direction.

Bluebottle

[cyril82]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

sorry bluebottle i thought i'd answered you on that one, close took the payment for the gap, it was a single premium policy and they took it in place of my first finance payment (or so they claim) adding an extra finance payment to the back end of the agreement.

there is no doubt that i paid, what i cant prove is did close pay the insurance company, the insurance company say no, at least not directly in relation to my policy, close say the did pay the insurance company for my specific policy, someone is wrong, but who? there is a lot of passing the buck going on.

[bluebottle]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

Close Finance claim they repossessed your van on the premise that you had not kept up the payments. The insurance company aspect is, I think, a red herring, designed to throw you off the scent, so to speak.

What I need to know is whether you made any further payments to Close Finance after the first payment. Once I have this information to hand, I should be able to advise you as to which would be the best way of dealing with this.

Bluebottle

[cyril82]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

ok, there were 11 contractual payments due at the time of reposession and i had paid 10 with the 11th being three weeks overdue, given that the default notice (which i only received after repo, though dated as it should have been) had to allow 14 days to rectify the breach that meant they commenced reposession/termination proceeding upon one pament becoming one week overdue.

if thats not over eager on its own i also have notes on my account (obtained via SAR) showing managers instructing staff not to attempt payment so that the can repo if i fall behind for three months prior to the actual repo date, but i make paments by debit card thus thwarting their plans.

the importance of the gap policy is that if it was never in place there is no way for close to get me below one third, it wuls also prove the have committed insurance fraud to try and justify their repo.

however on the above alone i think that has got to be breach of contract, surely? planning to repo an up to date account and conspiring to get the debtor to fall behind on paments? thats not on is it?

i also have proof that the company sent me a recreated credit agreement which contained terms which favoured them (in our dispute over the one third issue) but that were never in our original agreement.

also the recorded a default against me for in excess of £4,000 despite the ICO's technical guidance for lenders stating that a debtor should not be considered to be in default for the purpose of credit referancing until the are 3 clear months in arrears (i was onl 3 weeks) and that where the creditor and debtor are involved in a dispute then the creditor should not record a default, thats two potential breaches of the data protection act to throw into the mix, to add to their repeated earlier breaches by failing to provide documents in relation to SAR'S made.

[bluebottle]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

Thanks for getting back so quickly, Cyril.

Right. Just to make sure I've got this right, you had to make 21 contractual payments in all and had made 10 at the date of repossession. This means you had exceeded the one-third required to make repossession without a court order unlawful. Given the fact that Close Finance altered documents, you have evidence of an intention to falsify a document kept for accounting purposes in order to justify repossession, placing a false default on your credit record, various data protection violations and a history of serious and repeated breaches of the DPA, confirmed by the ICO, please let me assure you that this is not as simple and straightforward as it might appear.

Falsifying a document kept for accounting purposes is an offence under Section 17, Theft Act 1968. Altering or falsifying documents under the circumstances of this case is an offence under Section 2, Fraud Act 2006. On top of this, there are DPA violations and, quite possibly, financial law violations, too.

Given Close Finance's history of serious and repeated breaches of the DPA, go to the ICO website, download a complaint form and get that off to the ICO. Next, go back to your solicitor, appraise them of what you have found out and what you have done so far, that is, lodged a complaint with the ICO, and ask them to advise on any matters that can be dealt with under civil law.

However, I feel that the police are going to become involved in this matter, whatever, sooner rather than later.

If you want me to give you my considered opinion on this matter, based on my experience as a policeman, it looks very much to me like an insurance fraud and you have been the unwitting victim of it.

Get ready to go the police, but you need to get the complaint off the ICO first, then speak to your solicitor. Come back onto this thread and let us know what happens.

[cyril82]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

thanks for getting back to me bluebottle.

one slight correction to your evaluation, there were 48 contractual monthly payments under the agreement but i paid a large deposit which counts towards the 1/3rd hence how i managed to pass 1/3rd so early into the agreement.

i agree that i should contact the ICO. This matter is very complex as there are multiple issues spanning a broad range of civil and (potentially) criminal legislation.

the hardest part is knowing which order to do things in.part of me hopes that by reporting them to the ICO there might be an investigation which may uncover more evidence in my favour but i'd hate to do anything that would negatively affect any legal case i may bring.

[bluebottle]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

thanks for getting back to me bluebottle.

one slight correction to your evaluation, there were 48 contractual monthly payments under the agreement but i paid a large deposit which counts towards the 1/3rd hence how i managed to pas 1/3rd so early into the agreement.

i agree that i should contact the ICO. This matter is very complex as there are multiple issues spanninga broad range of civil and (potentially) criminal legislation.

the hardest part is knowing which order to do things in.part of me hopes that by reporting them to the ICO there might be an investigation which ma uncover more evidence in my favour but i'd hate to do anything that would negativel affect any legal case i may bring.

Hello Cyril,

Yes, it can seem very daunting having to deal with low-life like Close Finance, but, in cases like this, if you break it down into small steps, it becomes easier to deal with, rather than rush around and work yourself into a frazzle.

From this point forward, I shall refer to law enforcement agencies as LEAs.

The first LEA you need to contact is the ICO. Like I've said in previous posts, given Close Finance's record, you need to get them involved at an early stage. When you download the complaint form from the ICO website, I would suggest you make a formal complaint against every CRA that has recorded the default as well as Close Finance.

The second LEA you need to speak to is the OFT. This is in case Close Finance are in breach of any licences issued by them and they can advise on any aspects they can and cannot deal with.

The third LEA you need to contact is your local Trading Standards Department, as they may already have issues with Close Finance relating to other people and may be looking for something to give them the necessary grounds to take action. I presume that the van was for business use, so Consumer Direct would not be appropriate, as they only deal with consumer issues.

The fourth LEA you need to speak to is your local police force. Take copies of all documents, including bank statements, receipts, debit card vouchers, showing payments made up to the time of the repossession. They will deal with aspects such as fraud, forgery and theft.

At each stage, you should inform each LEA what information you have given to other LEAs and which other LEAs you have yet to speak to. That way, they can co-ordinate any enquiries with each other, thus, avoiding unnecessary duplication of enquiries, and it also means they can share evidence as well. Always obtain the name and contact telephone number of someone you can contact at each LEA, should the need arise, e.g. new evidence.

Speak to your solicitor and keep them appraised of what is happening. If the solicitor has or comes into possession of any evidence that would be useful, they can bring this to the attention of the appropriate LEA.

With documentation in your possession, only let LEAs have photocopies. You should keep all originals in a safe place, as you will be required to produce them in any court proceedings that may result. The court (judge, jury) will need to see them.

I hope this gives you a suitable route map to follow and that there will be a successful outcome.

Keep us informed of developments as they arise.

Best of luck.

Bluebottle

[CleverClogs]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

The fact that Close Finance have a history of repeated and serious breaches of the DPA says a lot.

They are also not exactly unknown to the (link) Fundamentally Supine Authority:

[bluebottle]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

They are also not exactly unknown to the (link) Fundamentally Supine Authority:

Thanks for that, CleverClogs. Much appreciated.

[cyril82]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

Clever clogs, thanks for that little gem I’ll be sure to keep a copy of that on file.

Bluebottle,

I’m going to follow your advice and start reporting close’s conduct to the relevant enforcement and governing bodies.
i will be reporting their data protection breaches to the ICO shortly although because of the sheer number of breaches over such a long period it may take me a few days (around work commitments) to draft up a clear and concise explanation of my complaint.

since most other bodies require you to first try to resolve the matter with the company before bringing a complaint, such as the FOS and the court system, and given that i now have new evidence and new complaints not addressed with the company prior, i have contacted them again today, by telephone, (recorded) though i will have to follow it up with a letter too just to cover all bases.

in the call i asked them to address their data protection breaches, they arrogantly claimed they hadn't committed any breaches. Apparently not sending me details of my gap insurance policy in response to my SAR was not a breach because they "only sold me the policy" and after that everything is the responsibility of the insurance company not them, i did point out to them that i had already spoken to the ICO'S office to seek clarification and they had told me that because the finance company sold me the policy and took payment for the policy they are liable to provide details of it in relation to any SAR made. Astonishing in their arrogance close replied "i'm sure the ICO didn't mean to misinform you but i think that what they have told you applies in general terms but our agreement with the insurance company is different so that information wouldn't be correct in this case"……… Tell it to the ICO!! I’m sure they’ll love being told they don’t understand the data protection act by a jumped up employee of a back street finance company.

In response to my complaint that their recording of a default on my credit file was not in accordance with the ICO’s technical guidance to lenders which states that a default should normally be recorded only when the debtor is three to six months in arrears they stated that “this is only guidance it doesn’t mean we have to do that and we choose not to follow that part of the guidance”.

In response to my complaint that the technical guidance also states that where a legitimate dispute has been raised then the creditor should not record a default as this information is deemed not fit for the purpose of credit referencing their reply was “there is no dispute, we did everything right and you’re wrong so there is no dispute to answer and because you haven’t taken any legal action then your complaint doesn’t count as a dispute”.

The technical guidance doesn’t make any reference to legal action, nor does it say that the creditor is permitted to determine what is and is not a dispute. Of course they say they did nothing wrong, but I say they have and have raised plausible, disputable issues regarding their conduct, that puts us in dispute, end of. I stated that since we can’t agree the next step I will take will be to forward this compliant to the ICO for them to decide, that should be interesting.

They say they are going to send me further information in relation to the gap policy showing that they paid a lump sum premium to the insurance company in relation to my gap policy, and apparently they are going to get the insurance company to confirm this also, well that should be interesting as the insurance company have already told me in a recorded phone call that they were not paid a penny in direct relation to my policy, we will see what they come up with on that score.

After this was discussed the lady at the finance company became quite arrogant saying that once this was supplied I should be happy and the matter will be considered closed.
I decided to play my ace card, I have to tell them about this before I can bring legal action or a compliant to the FOS so I let her have it.

I asked her if it was normal to start termination/repossession proceeding after one week of a payment falling due, she said yes it is, I asked is it normal to terminate an agreement and repossess a vehicle three weeks after the only due payment is unpaid, she said that this is normal company procedure.

Ok, not nice but I suppose it’s up to them.

So I then ask her is it normal company practise for employees to discuss a customer’s account and instruct each other not to attempt payment then if the customer forgets to contact them with payment terminate and repo the vehicle, despite the fact the agreement is up to date at that point and is it normal for employees to conspire to attempt to do everything possible to increase the likelihood of a customer falling behind on payments just so that they can repo a vehicle?

She tried to blame me again saying its not up to them to chase payment.

I agreed but I pointed out that the direct debit had been cancelled because I had changed my bank account and despite the fact that all direct debits should have been transferred over to the new account this one was mistakenly cancelled and so I had requested a new direct debit mandate be sent to me so that I could reset the payments and the notes on the account (provided to me in response to my SAR) show that I ask for this then ask for it again while making a debit card payment a month later (this is the same two months the notes planning to repo are going on the account) but it is not sent for a second month running when a note goes on the account stating ****last chance to get vehicle back suggest we don’t pursue payment then term and repo if missed***( the stars are as they are entered on the notes, I’m up to date on payments when this note goes on).

I state that I think it not unreasonable to assume that the direct debit mandate was deliberately not sent to me because at the time I request it their staff are already conspiring to try not to get payment in order to be able to repo my vehicle and since my payment being on direct debit would have decreased the likelihood of my missing a payment it is not unreasonable to assume that they wouldn’t have wanted me on direct debit payments. I put it to her that I think that in repeatedly requesting a direct debit mandate and ringing in debit card payments I had done everything I reasonably could to try to keep the account in order.

I put it to her that I think it would be possible to bring court action against them for breach of contract for this blatant conspiring to not take payment and repossess my vehicle despite my being up to date with payments.

She cant answer this and simply asks me “look, why don’t you tell me what you want to achieve in relation to this complaint as you obviously want some sort of resolution and if you tell me I will refer it to the relevant mangers”

I said that I hadn’t got a set resolution in mind as I was still investigating and gathering evidence but I would want at least, all monies paid in relation to the agreement refunded and the default removing from my credit file.

I’m also going to put all this in writing, the full complaint, so that in the event they refuse to comply with any of my requests for resolution I can take further action via either the FOS or the courts.

One other massive mistake she made was In relation to the default notice supposedly sent to me 14 days prior to repo, I only actually received this on the morning of the day that the repo men turned up but I had resigned myself to the fact that I will probably never be able to prove that this was a deliberate act by close in sending it out late, but when questioning how many default notices they actually issued, as they had made some crazy claims to the FOS regarding this, she says “oh I think I can see why you think less default notices were sent to you, there is another one here but it appears it only went out about the same time as repossession”.

Whoa….what did she say?!!!

They only sent out the default notice about the time of repossession?

I immediately pulled her up on this point but she obviously realised what she had said and backtracked claiming to have sent it on a date which is exactly 14 days before repo.
Don’t know what to do with that bit of info right now but it is very handy to have, interestingly there is no default notice fee lodged on the account fee ledger for the default notice sent prior to repo, nor was a copy of the default notice sent in relation to my SAR…

I’ll keep the thread updated with further developments…

[CleverClogs]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

How was the default notice sent?

Was it sent by second class post, first class post, Recorded Delivery or Special Delivery?

(Second class post is deemed to have been served four working days after the alleged date of posting; for first class post, this is reduced to two working days after the alleged date of posting. With Recorded Delivery and Special Delivery, it should be possinle to discover when it was posted.)

How many days had elapsed between the date of the Default Notice and the date they seized the vehicle?

[cyril82]

Re: illegal repo what am i owed?

How was the default notice sent?

Was it sent by second class post, first class post, Recorded Delivery or Special Delivery?

(Second class post is deemed to have been served four working days after the alleged date of posting; for first class post, this is reduced to two working days after the alleged date of posting. With Recorded Delivery and Special Delivery, it should be possinle to discover when it was posted.)

How many days had elapsed between the date of the Default Notice and the date they seized the vehicle?

as far as i remember it was sent normal first class post. i know that they Produced the default notice 10 days after the payment was due (it wasnt posted on this date as far as i can tell from above mentioned conversation and i didnt get it untill the day of repo) they terminated the agreemnt and sent it for repo exactly 14 days later (according to their records supplied in response to my SAR) and the guys came for it two days after.

so on what you say, allowing two days for posting, they repo'd on the right day, but close had terminated and sent it to the repo company for, and i quote "immediate repossession" on the 14th day, two days before repo so they wouldn't have accepted payment after this date but didn't i have another two days to pay when they terminated?

not sure, is it suppossed to be 14 days, plus 2 for post before they terminate or before they repo?