Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

[charitynjw]

I can't find a definitive answer/court case to this.

Scenario
Housing Assn (HA) block of flats.
Lots of parking spaces (not individually allocated).

Driver goes by pre-arrangement to pick up a new resident of approx 1 month. (Pulls into a space to wait for resident. Waits in car).
Car refuses to restart.
Resident had not been given any permits by HA (Resident does not drive, so hasn't been an issue as such).
Resident phones HA to get permit......took 10 days or so to arrive..
Vehicle removed from site as soon as possible......well before permit arrived.
Received 2 windscreen tickets on same day as breakdown.....30 minutes apart. (I'm pretty sure that's not on!)
No other tickets were issued.
Parking co (PPS) chased both via post.
RK contested the 2 in one email via PPS......both turned down. (After careful consideration....Right! )
Now to POPLA..........

Obviously there was no intention to park, so no intention to create legal relations.
Does anyone know of a similar court case or appeal?
Or have any ideas?
(Btw, driver has not been identified).

[Kati]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

[MENTION=5354]mystery1[/MENTION] , [MENTION=39331]ostell[/MENTION] or [MENTION=101521]Gevans67[/MENTION] will know more ... but can you get hold of the tenancy agreement??

[charitynjw]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

@mystery1 , @ostell or @Gevans67 will know more ... but can you get hold of the tenancy agreement??

Yep, got that.
Doesn't really say a lot re parking other than the site is managed, & residents have an unspecified period to make arrangements to obtain permits.

[Kati]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

Yep, got that.
Doesn't really say a lot re parking other than the site is managed, & residents have an unspecified period to make arrangements to obtain permits.

can I have a copy??

[charitynjw]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

can I have a copy??

Lol!
Scanner is bust.....dog chewed through cable (luckily the low-voltage side).
I'll try to do a photo, but now your asking me to get all techie!

[Kati]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

I'll try to do a photo, but now your asking me to get all techie!

you can email me a phone pic??

- - - Updated - - -

??

[charitynjw]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

you can email me a phone pic??

"I do not know" is the beginning of wisdom?
I must be uber wise......for me, it's the middle & end as well!

Bear with me..........I may be some time.

[R0b]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

Any signage within the area concerned? Presumably parking by permit only? Landowner issue and unless the parking co. has exclusive possession e.g. A lease, cannot have any standing to bring a claim. Not sure if a POPLA appeal would take that into account as it's a legal issue.

If for whatever reason a contract did apply, frustration is the only one defence which springs to mind that may have any chance of being allowed.

What is the purpose of the person collecting the new tenant and what relationship does the person driving the car have with the HA? If close relati Ship or acting as an agent there it is arguable that it is implied a right to park there having acting on behalf of HA.

[charitynjw]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

Any signage within the area concerned?
See attached.
Presumably parking by permit only?
Yep.
Landowner issue and unless the parking co. has exclusive possession e.g. A lease, cannot have any standing to bring a claim. Not sure if a POPLA appeal would take that into account as it's a legal issue.

If for whatever reason a contract did apply, frustration is the only one defence which springs to mind that may have any chance of being allowed.

What is the purpose of the person collecting the new tenant and what relationship does the person driving the car have with the HA? If close relati Ship or acting as an agent there it is arguable that it is implied a right to park there having acting on behalf of HA.
Family member collecting resident & giving a lift.

Cheers, R0b

[Kati]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

[MENTION=101521]Gevans67[/MENTION] ... forbidding signage?? permit-holders only?? ~(Would Barry know??)

[charitynjw]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

Just checking.
Via Sch 4 PoFA, if a notice is attached to the vehicle/given to driver, I read the situation as
28 days to allow for payment.
If not paid, after 28 days but before 56 days, reg keeper details obtained via DVLA & NTK served.
Have I got that right?

[R0b]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

My view is that the sign should be construed in a way which the parties meant it to be.

PRIVATE LAND PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY

The primary purpose is clearly to not permit anyone from parking unless they are authorised to do so, which is by way of a permit. So it is therefore a prohibited sign.

Unauthorised parking ... will result in a parking charge notice of £100

That is effectively the statement for damages if you trespass and park without permission.

By parking on this land you contractually agree to pay the displayed charge.

The above conflicts with the prohibition, it can't be both a contract and a trespass, it must be one or the other.

Overall, I would regard the sign as a prohibited one which only the landowner or person who has exclusive possession can bring a claim for. The parking co. instructed to manage the area cannot be taken to have exclusive possession of the land and if they argue otherwise, then you would require a copy of the lease and/or confirmation from the HA that the land is indeed leased to them. If not, it is the HA who is responsible for bringing any claim.

I am no expert on parking charges Charity so I wouldn't know if any legal arguments would fly with POPLA that's probably a question for M1 to answer.

[R0b]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

Just checking.
Via Sch 4 PoFA, if a notice is attached to the vehicle/given to driver, I read the situation as
28 days to allow for payment.
If not paid, after 28 days but before 56 days, reg keeper details obtained via DVLA & NTK served.
Have I got that right?

I had a quick look at the Schedule, that would appear correct from my understanding? NTK can be served by post between day 29 & day up to day 56.

[charitynjw]

Re: Car broke down.....now parking charge notices.

can I have a copy??

Hi Kati

I have, at last, accessed the tenancy agreement.
There is nothing in it which specifically mentions parking arrangements or responsibilities.
The closest in the signed agreement is -

Roadways
(13)
Not to block local roadways and other vehicular access, and to keep them, and car parking spaces, clear of unroadworthy vehicles and other obstructions.

There is mention in the 'welcome' letter (not part of the signed agreement)
"When you have lived in the property for a few weeks you will be more familiar with the services we provide, parking and bin cycles."

That's the lot!