Gemini Challenge - private road - won

[foodushe]

Hi,

I hope someone can help.

My car was parked on an easily publicly accessible private road next door to a soon to be completed car park at the olympic park. The signs indicated that the car park was down this road, but it was found to be closed and not yet finished. It turns out that the public car park was a mile or so further down the main road, which wasn't signposted.

As a relative was due to start their competition in the next few minutes and the driver was panicking, the car was left on the road for a short while and later moved. A Parking Charge Notice from Gemini was on the windscreen when the driver returned.

As the keeper, I've now received a "reminder notice" from Gemini. I'll post both of these up shortly.

I've seen in other threads the kind of thing I should write back as the initial challenge to get a popla code, but a lot of the ones I've found reference specific items in legislation, and I'm not sure what applies. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks VERY much in advance for any help! :-)

/Edit: Here are the documents I've received so far - the PCN attached to the windscreen and the reminder, sent just over 28 days later:

[mystery1]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Where a notice to driver was on the vehicle and a notice to keeper was waited for via post then it's para 8 of PoFA 2012 schedule 4.

M1

[foodushe]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Hi Mystery,

Thanks very much for your help.

So is this the right response to send?


Dear Sirs,

I, as registered keeper, wish to invoke your appeals procedure. The driver did not see any signs. In any event your charges are penal in nature and not a genuine pre estimate of loss. The PCN is not compliant with PoFA 2012 schedule 4 para 8 and as such i cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver.

I am under no statutory obligation to name the driver and will not do so.

Should you reject my appeal please supply a popla code.


Yours etc.

(I found this on another thread, you suggested this response to someone else with para 8 :-) )

Just so I understand what I'm saying in this response, when I tell them it isn't compliant with para 8, in what way is it not? I've got the PoFA open (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4) but I can't spot which bit they've got wrong.

Thanks again :-)

[ostell]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Period of parking for a starters and 8(8) probably.

[mystery1]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

(2)The notice must—


(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates

b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;


(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver

(f)warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—


(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph (c) or (d)) has not been paid in full, and


(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,


the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;


(h)identify the creditor



M1

[ostell]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Could you provide a google maps reference? I've guessed at the maps and the signage is definitely deficient in the area. Facing the road and unreadable as you pass by, with the font too small. Off road in possible parking spaces there are no signs at all.

Double yellow lines: no meaning at all if it is private land. It is still private land? Have you checked with the local council to see if the road has not been adopted.

[foodushe]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

That's brill - Thanks Mystery, and thanks Ostell.

Yes, now I look again, they only note the date+time spotted, not the /period/ from and to. And the Notice To Driver doesn't mention the things about the Keeper becoming liable. Great stuff, I'll send the message above. Thanks again for the advice :-)

As for the map of the area, it was this road here, just off Waterden Road - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.54...2!8i6656?hl=en

The road did not look like that at the time - it looks like google photo'd it in June 2012. It had no works on it, it had a wide pavement, no yellow lines and the buildings were built on one side and a white boarding fence on the other around the ongoing works site, again with a pavement in front. It looked like a proper road, and other cars were parked in a line all the way down - and my car was parked on the end. If there were signs, they were small and facing directly to the road.

I'll get this appeal sent off today and I guess check back with you chaps when (if?) I get a POPLA code.

Once again - thanks again :-)

[ostell]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Put you appeal up on here first, before you send it, so that others can comment.

Was this where you were? I can't see any parking signs at all so why are they claiming?

[foodushe]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Ah, whoops, I just sent it already. I sent this:

"Dear Sirs,

I, as registered keeper, wish to invoke your appeals procedure. The driver did not see any signs. In any event your charges are penal in nature and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The PCN is not compliant with PoFA 2012 schedule 4 para 8 and as such i cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver.

I am under no statutory obligation to name the driver and will not do so.

Should you reject my appeal please supply a popla code.


Yours faithfully,
"

I based it on a similar one I found in a recent thread here, which Mystery had suggested to someone else, with the changes Mystery suggested to me above.

Was that ok to send, do you think?

[Kati]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Was that ok to send, do you think?

M1's templates always work to get a POPLA code

[foodushe]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Thank you Kati, that's a great relief :-)

[foodushe]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Hi All,

I just received my POPLA code a week ago (been flat out with work, first chance to post this!)

The redax'd letter they attached is here:









The actual POPLA code was in the email, which didn't contain any other info.

An odd thing I noticed is that the letter demands £100 but the "slip" on the back tells me the balance is £60. Sloppy.

Something I can't prove - I'm told that there were cars parked all the way up and down the road. So either a lot of people got "tickets" that day, or it isn't as strict a "no parking area" as they are trying to make out.

But anyway, I wonder if anyone is about that would be able to help me with my POPLA appeal?

Thanks v much in advance again for any help offered :-)

[mystery1]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

foodushepopla.rtf

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...a-process.html

M1

[foodushe]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

I've been away for a while, so I've only just had a chance to sort this...

Thank you very much for all your help, M1!

I've put my appeal in. I'll post back here when I get a response. Fingers crossed, eh? :-)

[foodushe]

Re: Gemini Challenge - private road

Hi All,

Last night I received a pack of evidence from Gemini to support their case, followed by a reply from POPLA inviting me to respond before they consider my appeal.

I'll post up the redax'd versions below. Would anyone be able to offer me some guidance in responding to this properly?

Some interesting things I noticed in their response:

"I refer to point 1: Keeper liability"

They note that I didn't refer to the document I was quoting. I'll pass on my apologies and reference the document. Later in this section, they reference PoFA 2012 themselves, noting only that they think they can get keeper liability simply because they left a PCN and a reminder.

"I refer to point 2: No standing"

"Please see the agreement" - they have not supplied the agreement (have they?) - I have redax'd and posted here all the documents I have been sent.

"I refer to point 3: Signage"

They say they have passed their annual audit - fair enough. But when one looks at the image sent, specifically the one of my car, where the direction of the photo looks straight down the road, the sign that can be seen in the background has its face towards the camera, which means it can't be viewed by the driver without their turning their head more than 10 degrees from straight ahead - which I think I saw on another thread (can anyone confirm this is a signage requirement?)

As well as the documents I've attached below, they sent me a copy of the DVLA's "Release of information from DVLA’s registers", although I'm not sure how this supports their case.

As always, thanks very much for any help offered! :-)

Redax'd docs: