*Update from CEL* - CCJ from CEL from 2016

[Dave_W]

Afternoon all,

I've only just found out that CEL have had a CCJ issued against me in 2016 for a PCN back in 2013. I've moved house in 2014, had no notification of the intent to take me to court and I'd also actually paid for my parking!

Bit of the back story;
Was checking out prices for insurance on a new car I'm intending on leasing but quotes were coming back telling me they were unable to offer monthly instalments and to speak to Experian. Having re-signed up for Credit Expert, they advised me there was a CCJ issued against me in 2016, but to see the details I'd have to enter an address in my address history from 2014. Once I'd got the case number, I called up Northampton CC and got details of the claimant (CEL). Having spoken to CEL (actually managed to get through!) they advised me of the date of the supposed offence.

Having checked with the parking company that was in use in the car park (now a building site!) it was Phone&Pay, I called them who had all the details from the day in question, what it shows is I paid for my parking, but the automated phone system seems to have got my registration number wrong :/ (despite it working on other occasions).

I've got the N244 form, do I need any more detail than this to proceed?

I've filled it in with the below, I'd really appreciate your opinion(s) on if you believe the below is enough, or if I should do some more leg work?

Section 3.
SET JUDGEMENT ASIDE
Fine incorrectly issued with no due diligence applied, letters sent to an address I was no longer living at, unable to defend myself.

Section 10.
Please find attached a copy of the parking receipt(s) in question, this shows that parking was paid for (provided by Phone&Pay) - it does however show that the automated phone system did not correctly record my registration plate on the car, which might have caused this ticket to have been issued. Very troubling, as it had worked without issue on two other occasions.
No diligence had been taken by ‘Civil Enforcement Ltd’ to see that I had in fact paid (despite finding out my details, which would have shown up in that days parking records).

Please also find attached a copy of a bank statement from 2014 showing that I was not at XXXXXXX from 2014, I had moved out long before the CCJ was issued in 2016, not giving me a chance to provide the attached proof and defend myself.

I am only now submitting this as I have only recently (Saturday 13th July 2019) discovered that I had a CCJ against me, this was found out after I was getting car insurance quotes and being refused the option of monthly payments, I had to enlist the help of Experian to find out that I had been wronged by ‘Civil Enforcement Ltd’

Grateful for any responses, I'll be sending the court £255 either later today or tomorrow morning (depending when I get time to hang on the phone for a while!).

Dave.

[ostell]

You should be asking the court for a setaside. If you look through you should find some instances of what is required and recommended. What you have written is nearly a defence that would go with the setaside application

Others know a lot more than me.

[R0b]

Hi Dave,

Have you contacted CEL to see if they would agree to setting aside the CCJ and what has been their response?

Section 3 doesn't state on what basis you want the default judgment set aside - there are mandatory and discretionary grounds. Suggest you have a look at the guide I produced so you have an understanding on the grounds in which a court may set aside. There's also some tips at the end to get you started.

I've also attached an example witness statement to help you along and an example N244 for setting aside.

N244 - Set aside application

Guide to setting aside a default judgment

Witness statement for setting aside a parking ticket

[Dave_W]

Hi Dave,

Have you contacted CEL to see if they would agree to setting aside the CCJ and what has been their response?

Section 3 doesn't state on what basis you want the default judgment set aside - there are mandatory and discretionary grounds. Suggest you have a look at the guide I produced so you have an understanding on the grounds in which a court may set aside. There's also some tips at the end to get you started.

I've also attached an example witness statement to help you along and an example N244 for setting aside.

N244 - Set aside application

Guide to setting aside a default judgment

Witness statement for setting aside a parking ticket

Thanks R0b,

I have not spoken to them about it yet, if they agree to it, does it just make the court request a formality? I'm half tempted to keep going without asking them, as they seem to have no issues doing things without my permission so it ends up costing them £255 rather than £100, if that prolongs things then maybe it's worth getting in touch with them, also cautious of delaying the application for the set aside as it's already 3 years old.

In section 3, should I put in there that it should be set aside based on mandatory or discretionary grounds (I'll read the guide of course).

[Dave_W]

I've read the (excellent) guide, thanks R0b - is contacting them and asking to consent to set aside mandatory? I can't find an email for them and don't wish to do this via the post, happy to spend the £255 to get things going.

Filled in both the N244 and the witness statement, just compiling together my exhibit(s) now

[Dave_W]

Just to update this, I've decided to proceed without attempting consent with CEL. Court fees have been paid and application, witness statement and evidence sent in.

I'll reply to this thread with any progress as it happens

[R0b]

Hello Dave sorry I didn't respond yesterday.

It's not mandator to invite CEL to consent to setting aside the CCJ but it can be advantageous, mainly for the reason that most judges choose not to make an order for costs against the claimant in set aside applications and so you will be £255 out of pocket, unless you specifically argue for it. By inviting CEL to consent to setting aside the default judgment you are seen to be reasonable and, if they choose to ignore you or refuse to consent without providing justification then that's an added bonus to argue for your costs of the application since they CEL's conduct was unreasonable.

So its fine sending the application on its own however, if it does go to a hearing and you are successful, you should raise the question of costs and prepare arguments for why the court should award them.

[Dave_W]

Thanks for replying R0b

I sent the forms off via email after paying and received a letter in the post this morning advising that the matter has been passed to Luton CC, guessing because I'm in the county of Beds, although I think Stevenage is probably closer.

Thanks so much for the replying, the guide you've made and the templates. I used your witness statement letter, made my own PDF with the evidence in, with the receipts for parking included.

Any idea on how much notice you usually get for the court visit? I'm sure it's going to take a while to get the appointment, but it'd be sods law if it turned up whilst I'm on holiday in a few weeks with not much notice

[Dave_W]

Evening R0b and anyone else who can help.

Following the submitting of the N244, CEL have been in touch.

Based on what I've submitted, that's sent me a 'without prejudice save as to costs' letter.

They are prepared to consent to the judgement being set aside, but only on these terms;
CCJ set aside
Claim dismissed
No order for costs

Now obviously I want this gone... BUT it's cost £255 (even if it was £100, it still shouldn't be something out of my pocket)

Has anyone ever had any luck going back to CEL or anyone similar and offering them a counter proposal where they pay the court fee, but no other costs. I'm not out for blood so to speak, so happy to not try and squeeze them for the hours of prep preparing my defence or even the £15 p/m I'm now having to pay for Credit Expert to monitor my account.

Tempted to send them something like;

--

Thank you for your letter offering to consent to the judgment you wrongly had made against me set aside. It is in both of our interests to get this issue resolved as swiftly and cleanly as possible, however, your actions have not only damaged my credit file but have also now cost me £255 directly applying to have this CCJ set aside.

If you are prepared to change the terms to;

- CCJ set aside;
- Claim dismissed; and
- Defendants court costs (£255) reimbursed

I would then be prepared to agree to your offer. Should you decline this fair proposal, I am happy to pursue my claim in County Court and will seek my court costs, time preparing my defence (at £19+VAT per hour) plus the cost of the 'Credit Expert' subscription for as long as it takes to have my record clear of the CCJ.

--

Worth a pursuing, or am I wasting my time? Feels to me that they know that I have more than a fair chance of defending myself based on the evidence provided (both not living at the address and also actually paying for parking).

Oh, they also finished off the letter a semi threatening "If you do not accept our offer, please note that we reserve the right to produce this correspondence at hearing"

Thanks,
Dave.

[R0b]

This is exactly why you should write to them in the first place and invite them to consent to setting aside on your terms because what they've done is make the first offer and if you refuse then you could be seen as being unreasonable and not get any costs anyway - not to mention the set aside restarts the claim, it doesn't actually dismiss it which is what CEL are suggesting.

There is no harm in going back to CEL and suggesting that you will accept their terms of consent provided that they pay you the application fee of £255. You could argue that the fact CEL are not only prepared to set aside the claim but also dismiss it altogether, would infer that they didn't actually have a strong case in the first place and were simply chancing their arm.

I'm not sure how you would be able to reclaim the Experian subscription, because you can obtain a statutory report for £2 rather than the usually £10-£15 it normally costs for a recurring subscription. Equally, MoneySavingExpert offers a free Experian credit report every month called Credit Club - you can sign up that way and get free credit reports. Of course if you want to keep it in as extra fireworks, that's up to you.

If I recall CEL don't always have a habit of turning up where they think the default judgment is going to get set aside as they would be wasting extra time and money on a low value claim. The reference to raising the letter in court is something they would have to do if they turned up, because you can't raise that sort of correspondence until at the end of the hearing and the issue of costs are discussed, hence the "without prejudice save as to costs". As an FYI, a "without prejudice" letter means it can't be referred to in court at all whereas a "without prejudice save as to costs" allows the party to refer to the correspondence when costs are discussed, usually to show that one party is being unreasonable and should not be entitled to reclaim costs or at least have a reduced amount.

Your letter generally is fine, but you might want to weave something in about their offer to dismiss the claim. Something like, "It seems to me that your offer not only to consent to setting aside the default judgment but to dismiss it altogether, suggests that your case was in any event unmeritorius. Accordingly, I do not see why I should bear the costs of the application where, had you complied with the Civil Procedure Rules, we would not have been in the position that we are now in. I trust you will consider my proposal and I would appreciate your response no later than X date but if I do not hear back from you by then, I will assume that my proposal is rejected in which case I will continue preparing for the hearing and if successful, seek recovery of my costs including, the application fees together with costs of witness statement preparation, evidence, bundling and attending the hearing, at a rate of £19 per hour as is the current litigant in person rate. I currently estimate the total amount of my costs to be in the region of £XXX"

I'm not saying you have to use any of the above but you should consider beefing up your response to make it look like they could incurring a hell of a lot more than what they are claiming. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Dave_W]

R0b Thanks so much for taking the time to reply with the above.

Got it to be honest, even though I feel I’ve got a really good chance of getting the set aside and beating the claim, I’m now contemplating is it worth my time vs the £255 going to court twice to fight them about it.

I’ll mull it over today.

Dave.

[R0b]

Sometimes it's worth sacraficing some money for the sake of getting the end result which is the CCJ being removed. Instead of asking for the full £255 you could compromise and suggest each side pays a portion of the fees meaning they agree to give you £100 and you pay the rest.

As you say, really depends on whether it's worth your time.

[Dave_W]

If I was to accept their proposal, I assume the judge still has to agree to it, if he/she does, does that still require a court visit?

Wondering on timescales

[R0b]

The usual rules for a consent order is that an officer of the court (not a judge) would review the order and rubber stamp it. However, where one party is unrepresented then a judge must review it and that's where it can be difficult to estimate a time but wouldn't ordinarily require a court hearing. Again, the judge usually rubber stamps consent orders but if he or she has concerns then they do have the power to order a hearing although this only occurs where it might appear that the litigant in person might be taken advantage of.

Once you've filed the application, I'd give it 2 weeks and then chase weekly after that for an update.

[Dave_W]

Thanks R0b do I need do do anything other than write back to CEL accepting if I go down that route, I assume they then present this back to the court?