Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

[373915956]

Hi @mystery1, sorry for disturbing you, the driver was parking my car at the same car park as the poster Palladium91 at 31st July from 05：40 to 11:05. I received a similar letter from G24 Ltd.
I followed the guidance on this page and replied accordingly your reply at 1st July on this page as claimed that the driver saw no signs.

I received the e-mail from G24 and rejected my appeal. Could you tell me what I should do next? As your suggestions, I need go to the IAS register to appeal and wait for the next step. Is that right？ Thank you very much！

X.Yang

[mystery1]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

I need go to the IAS register to appeal and wait for the next step. Is that right？

Yes, and hopefully the prime facie case that g24 lodge will have enough holes in it that we can win. It is not easy to win at IAS though but you can ignore them afterwards if required.

M1

[373915956]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

[MENTION=5354]mystery1[/MENTION] thanks, I will do it and let you know the result, thanks again!

[373915956]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

@mystery1 I received the message from IAS that the G24 uploaded the evidence and I need to reply before 25th/08.
They uploaded the Notice to Keeper, the signs and the sitemap of the car park

Actually they uploaded the wrong sitemap, which is not the park I was parking, the uploaded car park only open from the shops open hours （maybe from 9.00am--8.00pm）but certainly not open at 5.00 am and not the car park I was parking.

What I should do next? thank you very much!

[mystery1]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

I'll get back to you soon.

M1

[373915956]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

@mystery1 Thanks, wait for your instructions

[mystery1]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

I'd go with something like this. It's right in my view but there is always a risk at IAS that they just say no to any appeal.

M1




Keeper liability.




The operators primia facie case states that "the operator is seeking keeper liability in accordance with pofa"




The protection of freedoms act 2012 schedule 4 allows the opportunity for parking companies liable for the actions of the driver but only if full compliance is achieved. In the case of an ANPR situation compliance with section 9 is required.






Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle








4(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
(2)The right under this paragraph applies only if—
(a)the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met ....






6(1)The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—




(b)has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.




9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;
(c)describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—
(i)specified in the notice; and
(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;
(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).
(3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).
(4)The notice must be given by—
(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.
(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.




If the operator is relying on paragraph 9 of PoFA then the requirements have not been met.


There is no period of parking, merely an entry and exit time as can be seen from the photographs on the PCN the vehicle is moving and on the main road making a manoeuvre at the stated times on the notice and thus cannot be parked at these times. In any event the notice states the parking was for 325 minutes and the entry and exit times only show 324 minutes and 44 seconds so the period of parking stated is wrong even if you discount that this is worked out whilst the vehicle is not parked at the start and finish of that period. This is also reflected in the operators prima facie case which states 324 minutes.

The PCN does not specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid at a time which is specified in the notice 2 (d).




The notice to keeper being flawed means the operator cannot rely on Pofa as the state and with the drivers identity being unknown the charge should be cancelled.

[mystery1]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

I forgot to say, make sure you upload the pcn with this as the IAS get arsey if you don't.

M1

I'd go with something like this. It's right in my view but there is always a risk at IAS that they just say no to any appeal.

M1




Keeper liability.




The operators primia facie case states that "the operator is seeking keeper liability in accordance with pofa"




The protection of freedoms act 2012 schedule 4 allows the opportunity for parking companies liable for the actions of the driver but only if full compliance is achieved. In the case of an ANPR situation compliance with section 9 is required.






Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle








4(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
(2)The right under this paragraph applies only if—
(a)the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met ....






6(1)The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—




(b)has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.




9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;
(c)describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—
(i)specified in the notice; and
(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;
(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).
(3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).
(4)The notice must be given by—
(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.
(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.




If the operator is relying on paragraph 9 of PoFA then the requirements have not been met.


There is no period of parking, merely an entry and exit time as can be seen from the photographs on the PCN the vehicle is moving and on the main road making a manoeuvre at the stated times on the notice and thus cannot be parked at these times. In any event the notice states the parking was for 325 minutes and the entry and exit times only show 324 minutes and 44 seconds so the period of parking stated is wrong even if you discount that this is worked out whilst the vehicle is not parked at the start and finish of that period. This is also reflected in the operators prima facie case which states 324 minutes.

The PCN does not specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid at a time which is specified in the notice 2 (d).




The notice to keeper being flawed means the operator cannot rely on Pofa as the state and with the drivers identity being unknown the charge should be cancelled.

[373915956]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

@mystery1 Thanks, the G24 uploaded the PCN (the keeper letter), I was upload your words and received the operator's response. I uploaded the car park opening time as well. But the operator said " the sign that the appellant that the appellant has provided is not a G24 sign". The car park does the car park G24 claimed on the PCN and does not open until 7.00 am. What should I do? refer to arbitration or continue to response？

[mystery1]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

Well IAS will do what ever they think. You only get one shot to upload stuff so nothing you can say now matters.

Interesting sign though, since it doesn't say you can't park if you're not a customer. Keep that just in case.

M1

[373915956]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

@mystery1 Thanks a lot, should I just leave it until the deadline of the response to operator or I should click the button " Refer the case straight to arbitration". Thanks again!

[mystery1]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

If you've uploaded the appeal and PCN then i'd just wait.

M1

[373915956]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

@mystery1 The Appeal is dismissed, the reason is given as:

"The appellant does not dispute that his vehicle entered the site on the day in question at 05.40 hours and left the site at 11.05 hours on the same day. However, signage around the site makes it clear that the land is private, and that parking is only for customers of shops on that site. Bearing in mind there are no shops open at 5.40 in the morning, the appellant was automatically in breach of the terms when he entered the site. He also spent longer there than the maximum time allowed of 180 minutes. The appellant's argument regarding the charge being invalid due to the PoFA not being adhered to holds no water; the notice has been served in time, the fact that the time relates to entry and exit rather than a time of parking makes no difference. The operator can only rely on entry and exit times as that is where the ANPR camera is placed. The appellant submits a photograph of the CentralSix Shopping Centre opening times, indicating that the car park does not open until 9am mid week. This gives even more weight to the operator's case inasmuch as this shows that the land is private and not open to members of the public before 9am. Bearing in mind the evidence that I have before me, I find that the parking charge was properly issued, and in due course can be lawfully enforced."

“As your appeal has been dismissed, the Independent Adjudicator has found, upon the evidence provided, that the parking charge was lawfully incurred.

As this appeal has not been resolved in your favour, the IAS is unable to intervene further in this matter.

Should you continue to contest the charge then you should consider obtaining independent legal advice.”

What we can do next? Thank you very much!

[mystery1]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

Well we can either pay or ignore and see if they do court.

To help you decide see what a real court thinks High Wycombe Three Approved Judgment.pdf

M1

[373915956]

Re: G24 Ltd - PCN - Central Six, Coventry

Thank you very much, I will see. Thanks again.