DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

[des8]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

In view of the comments above I would strongly advise you do not contact DWP.
Instruct your sister likewise, and advise her not to offer any form of payment to anyone!

As executor , yes, you are responsible.
BUT DWP will have problems recovering from you as you are in Canada, and even if they should succeed you would probably have a claim against the Practitioners who have been negligent.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Thank you for your reply.
I can't tell when Probate was applied for, as I only have itemised billing records from the company (Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners) but letters went out to Winchester Probate Registry on 03/02/2014, 25/03/2014, and 01/04/2014 and they spoke to them on 11/02/2014. Would I be right to presume in here that Probate was applied for?

I cannot see any mention of an advertisement being placed in any newspaper.

Both my sister and I have been notified by the Trust and Estate Practitioners of DWP's decision to recover equally the amount of money from both of us. The letter was sent from Recovery from Estates Debt Management (BF) /Department for Work and Pensions dated 31/12/2015 and clearly states that the amount must be paid by 28 January, 2016. The explanation for the overpayment is just a chart Called Treatment of Income and Capital which is just generic and not specific to the case.

There was a GBP30,000 bond discovered after Mum's death which is the cause of undeclared income and the reason for the clawback.

Specifically, is it better for me to call DWP or just pay my half and let me sister call for herself to work out a payment plan for her or should I try and get in touch with DWP - not sure any of those numbers work from Canada, but will find out, and ask for a clearer breakdown?

I am disappointed and extremely upset, with the Probate/Wills company for not holding back funds, as this must happen quite often and I shouldn't have unknowingly been put into this position of responsibility for my sister's portion, knowing the precariousness of her behaviour at the start of this. I am encouraging my sister to contact DWP herself to work out her debt reconciliation and hope for the best (for me).

As I have very little time before the one month is up, I have to act fast and would appreciate your advice as I am still very confused. I don't doubt the overpayment given the discovery of the unknown bond, so I do not have a problem paying my half or should I have the amount broken down by DWP so I understand properly how they came up with the final total?

Thank you for your help.

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Thank you, and that is good advice.

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Thank you for the reply. There was a bond that was discovered after my Mother's death, that had been rolling over since 2003. It is this that has likely caused the overpayment, I believe.

You mentioned your mother had, was it Alzheimer's or Dementia (?) from at least 2003. There is a strong argument therefore that your mother did not have legal capacity (legally too sick to understand) to be aware of DWP's 'change of circumstance' and therefore is not responsible for the debt prior to her death and therefore should not be burdened by the overpayment in her demise, or for the claim of overpayment to survive to effect her estate (where it is held on trust, as such) where it affects any third parties as the latter parties were only cognizant at some point after her death.

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

My mother had Alzheimer's, ending up in a Care Home for nearly the last five years of her life. In 2003, I don't know if she was on pension credit, as it seems DWP are clawing back to 2006, by which time Mum was certainly having great difficulties. My sister who lives in England had a stroke and had limited capacity and still does, (memory issues, speech impediment, mobility issues). There is no doubt that my mum would not have remembered anything to do with a bond. Tomorrow is the day we are supposed to respond with payment to DWP. I am still not sure what to do, apart from ignore it, but then the Reg. Trust people will no doubt email and ask where is my payment. I certainly don't want to be running up another huge bill with them either.

Thanks for all your help.

[des8]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

But you won't be running up a bill with Reg Trust.
They have completed settlement of the estate (presumably) and are now acting as collectors for DWP's alleged overpayment.
I personally would ignore them.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

My mother had Alzheimer's, ending up in a Care Home for nearly the last five years of her life. In 2003, I don't know if she was on pension credit, as it seems DWP are clawing back to 2006, by which time Mum was certainly having great difficulties. My sister who lives in England had a stroke and had limited capacity and still does, (memory issues, speech impediment, mobility issues). There is no doubt that my mum would not have remembered anything to do with a bond. Tomorrow is the day we are supposed to respond with payment to DWP. I am still not sure what to do, apart from ignore it, but then the Reg. Trust people will no doubt email and ask where is my payment. I certainly don't want to be running up another huge bill with them either.

Thanks for all your help.

I can only give you my advice....you know if I were you I wouldn't pay them a cent...you had to deal with the practitioner person's negligence....i'd let this go, too....more trouble than it's worth. It was terrible that they put your mum's estate in vulnerable position though. Do not let the horrors pressure you. Remember you have done nothing wrong, you just accepted a gift...so ignore them completely. I'd tell your sister to ignore them too. It sounds like your mum didn't even have mental capacity to know there was a change of circumstance.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Thank you. The letter came as an attachment from an email sent to me from the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners, on January 11, 2015, who acted on our behalf for the whole process. They are the ones who originally let DWP know that Mum had died, obtained probate, and they eventually dispersed the funds last February, 2015.

They received a letter last May/June 2015 from DWP who stated they were looking into an overpayment. It was in fact, the Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners who got back in touch with DWP again, I think at the end of last year December 2015 (unbeknownst to me as I would have said LEAVE WELL ALONE), but I suppose they wanted to close their books and wanted an answer from DWP. Perhaps this is why it is such a scant form like letter rushed out? I had no idea that they were going to chase down DWP and see what was happening.

The Registered Trust and Estate Practitioners could have given DWP the beneficiaries names/details (my sister and I), but I really don't know. I have only received two emails from them in the last 10 months - one to inform me that DWP were looking into a possible overpayment that I received last May/June and the one with the attachment on January 11, 2016.

I have not been contacted directly by DWP, neither has my sister who lives in England. I understand that the Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners sent my sister a letter with the same information as I received in the attachment.

I am sure the Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners are anxiously awaiting my bank transfer into their bank account. They did not want me to send it directly to DWP but to them. I had emailed them back to say I would pay my half share, but I would not take any responsibility should my sister not pay her half. This was their reply: (again please note: I do not ever recall being told I was the Executor and understood that the Reg. Trust and Estate Practitioners 'person' was the Executor. Looking back I see an email that refers to me being the Personal Representative, would have meant nothing more to me than I was the one they were communicating with due to my sister's limitations of speech etc., following a stroke):

"With regard to liability, I am afraid that, as the Executor, you are responsible for the whole debt. This may mean that if 'sister' doesn’t respond, you will need to pay the entire amount and pursue her for her half share. Let us hope it doesn’t come to this. I have a diary note to contact 'sister' again if I have not heard from her in a week or so. You will see that the DWP can take their time, but they are less obliging when it comes to requesting repayment of the debt "

Thank you again for your advice. I am feeling a little less frantic after both Des8 and your kind attention to this for me. I have been having nightmares about the strong arm of the law tapping me on the shoulder on any visit back to the Old Country! I don't even have parking tickets!

judycc

I would want to hold back from paying the negligent practitioners if I were you, you've probably been dealing with legal clerk or para-legals..whilst the big boys reap the rewards. You're very welcome Judy, you take care.

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

I haven't asked them as I haven't been sure how to go forward at this point.

I checked the Gazette online and I cannot find an entry for my mother's death in he Wills and Probate notices for around November 2013 onwards.

[charitynjw]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

If it wasn't for any possible repercussions on your sister, as you live in Canada (& DWP are unlikely to send bailiffs toddling over there, lol!), I would be tempted to refer them to the 'reply' in Arkell v Pressdram* ( https://www.nasw.org/users/nbauman/arke ll.htm)

*(Don't look if you're easily offended)

:canada:

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

I haven't asked them as I haven't been sure how to go forward at this point.

I checked the Gazette online and I cannot find an entry for my mother's death in he Wills and Probate notices for around November 2013 onwards.

They were/ are being paid to represent your late mother's legal interests in her estate. If your mother had Alzheimer's for the last part of her life and she passed in 2013, this could would mean that she could have had capacity in 2008, 5 years' previously. What was her health like prior to 2008 back to 2003?

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

I just found the paperwork. My sister and I were granted Enduring Power of Attorney in November, 2005. Mum definitely did not have capacity then or for a long time before that. This was already at 'crisis' point when we obtained EPOA.

Her health was poorly. She had difficulty with mobility and suffered with depression. She had diagnosed Alzheimers and was under a psychiatric nurse who visited her at home., as well as attending sessions at a centre and had memory tests (the clock/five words etc). She was in a couple of day centres at this point which went up to four days a week in 2007/8 and onwards. She went into respite care when needed - usually in November when she was always severely depressed. and would not get out of bed for days and not eat.

I did not remember that EPOA was so many years ago.

Thank you.

They were/ are being paid to represent your late mother's legal interests in her estate. If your mother had Alzheimer's for the last part of her life and she passed in 2013, this could would mean that she could have had capacity in 2008, 5 years' previously. What was her health like prior to 2008 back to 2003?

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Oops that was when the documents were signed but apparently it took another three months from that date or a bit thereafter to register.
Thanks.

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Oops that was when the documents were signed but apparently it took another three months from that date or a bit thereafter to register.
Thanks.

Ergo, your mother was not compos mentis (ie she had/ has impeded mind/ thinking) and could not be legally responsible for the overpayment at least from 2005. The practitioners should have informed DWP when contact was made!!!

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Yes, this is true. Is it best still to 'ignore' DWP request or call them? Thank you so very much ... what a brilliant group you are!

[Judycc]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

I concur! Ha ha ... thank you for making me day!

[Openlaw15]

Re: DWP claw back long after all funds dispersed by appointed solicitor

Yes, this is true. Is it best still to 'ignore' DWP request or call them? Thank you so very much ... what a brilliant group you are!

If I know lawyers.. they will just argue the point and find some ancient case to say it (capacity) doesn't matter as the onus will be on the PR as EPOA to inform DWP. Hmm, I see you have dual citizenship too, so technically if you come back to the UK for a long stay and DWP can trace you (i don't know how they could though), they may be able to take action against you for the 10k, i think. Overall, I wouldn't contact them at all and cross that bridge if it comes to it and not before.