PCN appeal help.

[alistairdale]

Hi,

I'm new here so please be gentle.

I have recently received a parking fine (PCN) through Leeds city council. The offence was: '12 Parking in a residents or shared used parking place without clearly displaying a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket for that place'. I have a business parking permit for all areas which includes the area I was parked in. I challenged the fine with evidence of my permit and received an email saying it was because I was parked in street for more than two hours. I challenged that as it didn't reflect what the offence indicated on the ticket. I then received an email again saying that "the permit you have displayed is no longer valid after the initial 2 hour period." I was told: No further correspondence will now be entered into, unless formal representations are received in reply to a Notice to Owner.

I've check the street and there are no signs indicating you can't park for longer than 2 hours. The only sign is requesting you have a parking permit to park on the street (I do). Also I've also checked the Area (Residents Permit Zones) permit Scheme - Terms and Conditions and there is nothing indicated in there that suggests a time limit.

Can anyone help with what I do next?

Thanks.

[teaboy2]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Send them a copy of the terms and conditions pointing out to them their is nothing in the terms and conditions that govern the use of the permit that limit you to parking in one place for a minimum of 2 hours - Also point out that you have been back to the same street and noted that their are no clear signs limiting parking to just 2 hours. Finnish the email by asking, now please explain to me how the permit is not valid after 2 hours when nothing is mentioned in the permits usage terms and conditions limiting its use to just 2 hours in one place, or how there can be an enforceable minimum period of 2 hours parking on the street in question when their is no clear signage that states as such? As things stand the ticket is invalid!

[alistairdale]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I will reply to email and highlight those points to them. I hope that they accept the correspondence as they have stated that there will be no further correspondence unless it's formal representations in reply to a Notice to Owner. Can they just refuse further correspondence? That just seems ludicrous! I will request any and all evidence supporting offence too. I work with a police team too who I’ve discussed it with and they are will to write a statement indicating that there are no signs or road marking which could warrant an fine for parking over an allocated time.
If anyone has any other helpful information it would be very much appreciated.
Thanks

[teaboy2]

Re: PCN appeal help.

If they refuse to communicate with you, then that would likely been deemed as unreasonable action on their part by a court, if it were to go that far.

Have they provided you details of the appeal process?
Are they a private parking company contracted by the council? - If so the council are liable for the actions of the contractors so contacting the council directly would be another way of dealing with the matter, especailly since its likely that you got the permit from the council.

[alistairdale]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Hi,

The permit was issued by the council and the PCN was issued by the council too. I'm glad it's not private with everything I hear about them. The Council Parking Services have provide me with the appeal process which I have followed. Their response to my appeal was refused and information sheet was email to with saying:
You must now either pay as detailed in our letter to you or await the issue of
the Notice to Owner (NtO) to the owner/registered keeper of the vehicle. The
NtO will advise that there is 28 days to either:

a)pay the full amount of the penalty charge
or
b)make a formal written representation to the Council

[teaboy2]

Re: PCN appeal help.

OK await the NTO then make a formal Representation to the council. Take with you a letter from your colleagues in the police team confirming the non existant of signage and a copy of the terms and conditions that govern the use of the permit outlining that their is no term in the terms and conditions that limit you to just 2 hours parking. And as their are no signs either then their is no limit of 2 hours, and the ticket itself is legally unenforceable and should never have been issued.

I assume you were displaying your permit in the car at the time?

[alistairdale]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Thanks for that.
Yes the permit is fixed to my windscreen and I have a photo of the fine on my windscreen and a clear view of the permit.
I take it I don't do anything now until the NTO arrives in the post requesting me to attend a hearing of some sort?
You would think that the parking services agree the cancellation of the ticket knowing their own terms and conditions relating to parking permits in residential areas.

[teaboy2]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Yes, do not do anything till you receive the NTO then go down the Formal Representation to the council path. Reason being is you have exhausted the the appeal process, if after the formal representation to the council, they still refuse to agree with you, then it will end up in court am afraid. But hopefully once you point out to the council their error, and that you will point out the same to a judge at court, they will withdraw the ticket - If not then a judge will likely find in your favour and the council will have your costs to pay as well as their own, not to mention public ridicule for waste of taxpayers funds.

[alistairdale]

Re: PCN appeal help.

I'll now gather together all the information relative information to put forward my case and wait for the NTO to arrive. That's unless they decide to withdraw the ticket before.

I'll make a point of updating the outcome here.
Thank you.

[michael]

Re: PCN appeal help.

then it will end up in court am afraid. No, it won't. You appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. It is not a court

But hopefully once you point out to the council their error, and that you will point out the same to a judge at court,
They are not judges. They are adjudicators, who are generally lawyers.

If not then a judge will likely find in your favour and the council will have your costs to pay .

Not true. It is extremely rare for adjudicators to award costs

[alistairdale]

Re: PCN appeal help.

So who pays for what?

[cheekymonkey07]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Sorry to but in to the great advice that these people give to you if you want to string it out a bit longer and get the full details of the road you received the PCN in ask them for The Traffic Management Order for the road that you got the PCN in as you have a right to this under the freedom of information act and by law they have to provide it to you this will give you all the information you need about the road and the parking restrictions. These people really get on my nerves they will try everything to get you to pay but if you know you are right don't give in and keep fighting good luck.

[alistairdale]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Thanks for the advice... i'm happy to string it out longer if I can. I will go back and request The Traffic Management Order too.

[michael]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Appealing to the TPT is free for the appellant.

AFAIK a proportion of every PCN issued goes to fund the TPT and I understand that councils are charged a fee for every PCN that goes to adjudication.

[alistairdale]

Re: PCN appeal help.

Is the TPT the route this issue may go then? Or is it something I need to start or something that will happen when I receive the NTO?