PCN on Service Road with Double Yellow Lines as a Blue Badge Holder

[andrew1]

Hi, A large shop in the High Street has a carpark at the back accessed via a public road. Beside this car park, prior to the entrance to the main car park is a slip-road which is used for two purposes:

1) for Delivery lorries to access a loading bay into the shop

and 2) Access to the rear entrance of the shop for Disabled drivers with the provision of 5 or 6 disabled bays. It's a fairly wide slip-road.

Painted down the side of the slip-road is a Double Yellow Line with no 'Blips' or flashes suggesting it is a 'No Parking at all' area so disabled drivers park their cars their with their blue badges on display regularly when the disabled bays are occupied.

Recently, upon return to the car ECP had issued a parking ticket stating " The vehicle was parked in a designated permit area without an authorised permit".

It was never thought this was anywhere but a public roadway where one could park with a Blue Badge.

Upon further inspection, there are signs up facing the roadway, but one could be forgiven for thinking they related to the main general carpark behind.

However, it appears on the signage that this is a private road along with the private car park, but I cannot yet establish who actually owns it as Land Registry address covers various parts of this property development.

The question being raised is that there is a wish to appeal this ticket (PCN) which was issued on 12th Feb 2025, but it is not known quite how to respond, so any advice would be appreciated.

The main gripe is that is if this actually is a private road, this double yellow line looks exactly like the lines painted on the public roads and is mimicking a public road and therefore is honeytrapping drivers who believe that it is possible to park there with a Blue badge ( almost like impersonating a police officer).

When looked at in the cold light of day, the signage is pretty clear, the 'Private Property' is written in smaller font in red (The photo won't upload, but I'll keep trying!) it does state park in Bays only, but the ticket, the PCN statesonly that it was parked in a designated permit area without a permit so.....what do I say please?

[des8]

Could you please post up a copy of the PCN, first removing identifying details such as name, address and ref numbers.
Leave in all dates and times.

I'll try and view the site on Google Earth when I have the location

[andrew1]

Thanks Des8

I'm trying without much success to get the photo's uploaded, but in the meantime, the location on the PCN is:

Marks and Spencer - Eltham Service Yard

My search on Postcode is SE9 1TQ and it's the sliproad coming off Orangery Lane. The first turning on the left hand side in Orangery Lane (which comes off Archery Rd) is to the Lidl car park, the second turning on the left is the one I'm speaking of leading to the M & S Disabled car parking bays which runs parallel to Orangery Lane and the said vehicle was parked on the left hand side (driving into the roadway) of the entrance roadway which runs down to the loading bay and those disabled bays. Hope that helps? and sorry I can't seem to upload those photo's.

A1

[des8]

At the moment do nothing!
Wait till the Parking Company sends you a Notice to Keeper (NTK) through the post.(who knows what errors they might make!)

Post it up (first removing identifying details) when received.
If you have trouble uploading it use a hosting site and post the link here

If you communicate with them at all, do not identify the driver.

Looking on Google Earth, there seems to be nothing to delineate that slip road from the public highway, and more importantly there don't seem to be any visible signs facing the road.

[andrew1]

What I'm trying to avoid is being caught for the £85 charge. If necessary I'll pay the £50, but the £85 is not worth risking for. Should I just appeal to start with and protect the £50 max charge and if so, how should I word it?

Through bitter experience of all things 'challenge' I've ended up paying out a fortune, I'm now a little more hesitant to gamble with my luck as I'm a lot older and hopefully a little more wiser. I just want to manage the risk....so what'dya think?

[des8]

Working off the limited information available I am assuming the PCN was issued by Euro Car Parks.

If the the charge remains unpaid , Euro Car Parks will need to send a notice to the registered keeper if they wish to obtain payment.
That notice must comply with conditions mandated in Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA 2012) schedule 4 para 8
Parking companies often get that wrong.

If you appeal that charge now, 99.9% certainty it will fail (accepting appeals does not generate an income!) and you can either pay or appeal to POPLA, whose decision is binding on the company but not you. So if you disagree with POPLA you can let it go to court.

If you await the Notice to Keeper (NTK) you have the advantage of an added layer for them to make an error to increase your chances of winning at POPLA.

If I located the correct road on Google Earth, and assuming the views there are up to date I really don't see how they could possibly win in court
There seems to be nothing there to suggest that slip road is anything to do with the car park next to it.
There are barriers separating it from the car park, no signs, the carriage way and yellow markings are a continuation from what is undoubtedly a public highway without any obvious delineation.

I would certainly let the matter run via a NTK through to POPLA at least.( and me being me would even take it through to court but I understand why others would not)

But your choice

[andrew1]

This is the sign facing the slip road and there are two of them! They were not noticed before. Behind them is the main car park for m and s.

Still having problems with the photo of the pcn, it seems to be too big for some reason, but I'm working on it!

[des8]

Where about are they, as they don't show up on google earth?

Are they clearly visible from where you parked?
Are there signs at the entrance to the slip road which would be easily seen by a driver (i.e. in line of sight?)

As they are forbidding signs (no permit so you can't park there!) they are not capable of being the basis of a contract (it is breach of contract that they rely on to enforce through the courts)

Does the parking charge notice affixed to the screen state an actual period of parking? (actual wording please)

[andrew1]

Thanks Des8

1) Where abouts are they? - They are attached to a posts on the right hand side of the slip road as you drive down, the posts being actually situated in the main car park showing another sign on the back of them for the main car park: Not sure if this streetveiw link on Google Maps will work on here, but you can see the slip road, cars parked exactly where the alleged offence took place, and larger M & S car park behind along with the signs put up fairly recently by the looks of things and the feint yellow lines (which have been repainted recently too).

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4520...LF3d7Q!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dm aps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.3427876823338636%26panoid%3DgLVktX5FNcp9V9uMLF3d 7Q%26yaw%3D197.22336747719032!7i16384!8i8192?entry =ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxOS4xIKXMDSoJLDEwMjExNDU1 SAFQAw%3D%3D

The yellow lines are continuous from the public road. I'm going up there tomorrow so I'll take some up to date pics and check out exactly what is and is not there given the points you are very kindly raising....

2) Are they clearly visible from where the car was allegedly parked? - Yes.

3) Are there signs at the entrance to the slip road which would be easily seen by a driver (i.e. in line of sight?) - No! - not that I saw and I cannot recall ever seeing any but will check tomorrow.

4) Does the PCN affixed to the screen state an actual period of parking? No, just the time observed and the issue time. There are two boxes on the PCN One for Observation Time and one for the Issue Time, both times are identical, so no mention of any 'period of time'.

I appreciate your input here Des8, thank you.

A1

[andrew1]

Thanks Des8

1) Where abouts are they? - They are attached to two posts on the right hand side of the slip road as you drive down, the posts being actually situated in the main car park showing another sign on the back of them for the main car park: Not sure if this streetveiw link on Google Maps will work on here, but you can see the slip road, cars parked exactly where the alleged offence took place, and larger M & S car park behind along with the signs put up fairly recently by the looks of things and the feint yellow lines (which have been repainted recently too).

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4520...LF3d7Q!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dm aps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.3427876823338636%26panoid%3DgLVktX5FNcp9V9uMLF3d 7Q%26yaw%3D197.22336747719032!7i16384!8i8192?entry =ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxOS4xIKXMDSoJLDEwMjEx NDU1 SAFQAw%3D%3D

The yellow lines are continuous from the public road. I'm going up there tomorrow so I'll take some up to date pics and check out exactly what is and is not there given the points you are very kindly raising....

2) Are they clearly visible from where the car was allegedly parked? - Yes.

3) Are there signs at the entrance to the slip road which would be easily seen by a driver (i.e. in line of sight?) - No! - not that I saw and I cannot recall ever seeing any but will check tomorrow.

4) Does the PCN affixed to the screen state an actual period of parking? No, just the time observed and the issue time. There are two boxes on the PCN One for Observation Time and one for the Issue Time, both times are identical, so no mention of any 'period of time'.

I appreciate your input here Des8, thank you.

A1

[des8]

OK, the sign boards showing on Google Earth look blank to me, but that is probably an old view.

However, as the PCN does not show a period, I would await the NTK.
This is because if the parking company doesn't know the identity of the driver, they can only transfer liability for any unpaid charges to the keeper if the NTK contains certain information.
One of the conditions is that it details "the period of parking".
This is a statutory requirement, and without it they will lose any claim.

I would ignore them for now and await developments

[andrew1]

Hi Des8, thanks so much for your support on this. I've been back today and it's like entering into a different place.....I particularly looked at the entrance to the slip-road and there's a great big sign which I have never seen before sitting slap-bang at the corner stating the obvious! " Permit Holders and Disabled Parking Only". All the Yellow lines have been repainted (not today) but it all looks like another hurdle to jump over in fighting this so I know you're going to wince, but I paid the £50 fine and I'll move on!

I know, I know...I ought to have persevered, but as I spent some of Christmas in hospital with a blood pressure of 210/110 and a suspected stroke my wife insisted (as did the doctors at the time) that I back-off from stress so I caved-in and paid it just to get it over! -Sorry!

Your guidance and enthusiasm is not wasted on me though as this issue has raised something which I will take up and make a noise about and that is the issue over private parking areas being able to use the same Yellow lines in their private parking areas as public roads use. I believe this to be very confusing for the general public especially Blue Badge Holders.

I spoke to staff members of M & S too who pointed out this slip road is okay for management to use (permit holders) as staff members can be quickly found to move their cars when delivery lorries come if needed to whereas general shoppers would be more difficult to locate who also may have left the premises to go up the high street. It makes sense and I should have been more vigilant although I'd swear these signs were not there when we used it!

I'm not easily caught out on these kind of things but I thank you for jumping on the thread and guiding me through.

Many thanks for all the good work you guys do and my best wishes to Sharon and Kate....been a while since we crossed paths!

All the best and sorry again

A1

[des8]

No need to apologise Andrew ... we just do what we have to and avoiding stress in certain situations is paramount.
Look after yourself and keep well

Also some posters don't realise that even if they fight and win the hidden costs can exceed the cost of settling early
They might not value time & effort they will need to employ.

Sharon, although still an "officer", hasn't been on since June 2021, but Kate is still active.
Many of the "old timers" are no longer active

Celestine

[andrew1]

Many of the 'old timers' are either passed away or licking their wounds of taking on deep-pocket lawyers and banks! Some had some spectacular and just wins for sure, I had a bit of both, but was fortunate enough to have a good asset base and some damned good support from the forums to take my fights all the way. At 76 now, my zest for fighting lawyers and banks has somewhat waned, but I will never forgetor forgive those individuals who were supposed to be 'professionals' lying through their back teeth for their clients who I would never have originally thought would stray from only using the truth.

I lost a bag load of money to those so-called 'professionals' who had lied, in court, in writing and in witness statements and blagging away to judges who actually believed them and I saw many forum friends destroying their livlihoods trying to prove these people wrong. Leaves a very bitter taste, but I gained significant strength from the wonderful people on the likes of Legal Beagles and CAG who bent over backwards, donating their time and knowledge to help those in need. Wonderful people, some of whom sadly I've seen crushed.

I'm one of the lucky ones and you'll probably never realise Des8 quite how much you are appreciated by we lesser mortals and for that I thank you, even for a mere parking ticket!

I met Kate way back at the OFT rally in Fleet Street x? years ago, lovely lady then, lovely lady now no doubt!

Take care

A1

[Celestine]

Hi Andrew! How the devil are you? Lovely to see you back, brings back many memories of our early warrior days. As Des says, many have moved on but our numbers have grown and flourished. The community runs very smoothly now with an incredible group of VIP's giving their valuable time to help others. I've been happily working behind the scenes at LB for a few years and very much enjoying my part time role as a Non Exec at the Legal Services Board where I push strongly for access to justice and consumer rights. These days I don't have to attend rallies, I can represent our views as a regulatory board member. https://legalservicesboard.org.uk/about-us/our-board/member-biographies

Much love to you and yours X K