PCN letter received 30 days after contravention

[england1500]

At my home address, 2 letters from Armtrac Security were received on 30th January 2024. The contravention was 31/12/2023, the 'Notice to Keeper' letter has a date of notice 05/01/2024 and the 'Reminder notice' has a date of notice of 22/01/2024. The appeal process is now not possible to complete. The contravention detailed in the letters is for an apparent claim that the car was on private land for 6 minutes, the letter includes a photo of the car arriving and departing.
Any advice please?

[des8]

yep!
please post up NTK, redacting name & address and reference/registration numbers but leaving in all dates and times
Also if possible post up pictures of signage at location

[england1500]

Thank you for the quick reply, please see attached pics.

[england1500]

I have now received an exact copy of the 'NTK' in the post this morning

[des8]

As a starter I would be disputing the charge on the basis the driver (who you do not identify) did not contract to park on the land.
The driver entered the park.
Stopped the vehicle, undid seat belt and alighted and locked car.
Then looked for signage, which was approached when located.
Time was taken to read and understand T&;Cs.
Decided not to avail himself of offer to park so returned to vehicle.
Unlocked vehicle, got in and closed door
Put on seat belt, started vehicle and left space (having to await for other vehicles to clear out of the way?)
Departed premises.

Armtrack are part of IPC, whose code of conduct (@sec 13.1) requires a consideration period to allow for such a scenario
https://irp.cdn-website.com/262226a6...iceV9%20V4.pdf

I doubt they will accept that as a defence (they want your money) so you will have to appeal to IPA (who are not truly independent so will reject your appeal) and it will go to court where I would expect a reasonable judge to agree with you

[england1500]

Thank you, and what about the sign that says 'No grace given to expired tickets'? Surely this is against the current legislation?
The fact that 2 letters of 'NTK' being sent, surely shows that they weren't 100% sure the first letter was received, so doesn't this strengthen the argument that the first 'NTK' letter wasn't received until 25 days after the Notice date.
The driver also had a 4 year old child in the back that had to re-belted after the driver returned to the car after the driver didn't avail himself to the offer to park.

[england1500]

The location of the car park has been documented online in the last 6 years of being confusing to locate what machine belongs to what part of the car park. And there is evidence of previous court cases being dismissed. Current day photos of the car park will be obtained for evidence.

[des8]

Thank you, and what about the sign that says 'No grace given to expired tickets'? Surely this is against the current legislation? One normally has a "grace period" after expiry in which to exit, but as there was no ticket in this case it doesn't matter if it contravenes present practice(legislation applies to English council tickets)
The fact that 2 letters of 'NTK' being sent, surely shows that they weren't 100% sure the first letter was received, so doesn't this strengthen the argument that the first 'NTK' letter wasn't received until 25 days after the Notice date. Not in court ... recipient needs to prove non receipt on time
The driver also had a 4 year old child in the back that had to re-belted after the driver returned to the car after the driver didn't avail himself to the offer to park Make sure to include time spent unbuckling and then rebelting.

Comments in red

[england1500]

Anybody could date a letter and send it 3 weeks later, the fact that the £60 payment window is now closed is not fair to the recipient.
thanks once again for your comments

[england1500]

The contravention falls within 2023, and version 8 of the IPC code of practice, does not include the 5 minute consideration period. So does aid in anyway?

[des8]

Version 8 sec 13 Consideration and Grace Periods on Private Land
13.1 Motorists must be allowed a sufficient Consideration Period so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to enter or remain on the Private Land. If a Motorist chooses to reject the opportunity by entering or remaining on the Private Land without reading terms and conditions, they may be deemed to have accepted them immediately

But doesn't matter as one can't be bound by T&Cs of a contract if one is not given the opportunity to read and assent

[england1500]

it just doesnt refer to the "5 mins" in version 8, so this would surely help me as the consideration time is obviously more vague in version 8 and down to opinion.

[des8]

The vaguer the better.... it could be half an hour if you are a slow reader.
If you're in Wales a lot of the signs are bilingual and take a lot of reading (and I always read both if only to laugh at the atrocious translations1)

[england1500]

Would you mind please giving your view on this?

************************************************** **************************

You issued me with a parking ticket on 5^th January 2024 but I believe it was unfairly issued. I decline your invitation to name the driver, which is not required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reasons:

• The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable

The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.

In my case, the £100 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of £1 for 30 minutes. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.

• The notice to keeper is incorrect
  The Notice to Keeper failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012. The Notice to Keeper postal letter arrived on 30^th January 2024, 25 days after the ‘Notice to keeper’ letter was dated.

• The driver did not contract to park on the land

The driver entered the park, undid seat belt of themselves, and then also undid the seat belt of their 4 year old child in the back of the car, car was then locked leaving child in the back. Then looked for signage, which was approached when located. Time was then taken to read and understand the Terms & Conditions. Driver was not comfortable within an Armtrac controlled car park and with the Terms & Conditions, especially with the ‘no grace period’, so driver decided not to avail themselves to the offer to park, so returned to vehicle. Unlocked vehicle, got in the car and moved 4 year old child back into their seat and re-belted. Driver then re-belted themselves, started vehicle and left space. There was a delay as another parked car had decided to leave just as the driver started the car. Driver then departed the premises.


If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter.

[des8]

Dear Sirs,
I have received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to specify the period of parking to which this notice applies as prescribed by section 9 (2) (e) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Additionally the driver did not contract to park, but having entered the land, read the terms and conditions and decided to leave.
Hence there was no contract and so no charge is payable.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.
Yours etc