Parking Charge Notice received today from Civil Enforcement Ltd

[Lini]

Hi
I just wanted to get some help from you on how to respond to this notice - I just wanted to give a brief bit of background
the driver was on the way home back after a long journey as they came off of the motorway their mother felt a bit unwell. tried to pull over on the high street to get her a bottle of water but there was nowhere to park. Just before they left the high street (it continues on to a road through a forest) they pulled over in a pub car park (obviously due to lockdown the pub was closed) there were lots of other cars in there. their mother stayed in the car with the car door open as she was hot - whilst they ran to the shop next to the pub to get a drink for her. they don't pretend she was seriously ill but she was hot had a sudden headache and felt like she was going to be sick.
they were probably away for 5 minutes.

The PCN that I received today shows the driver entered the car park at xpm and left 18 minutes later. they didn't leave the car park immediately when they returned as they just sat there for a bit with ther mum while she had a drink. Circumstances on the PCN says Circumstances Authorised Vehicles Only


*1. Was the driver parked? Keys were still in the engine and mother was still in the car 2. Was this a fair loss to the pub owner as the pub was completely closed due to Lockdown

I totally understand if it was a fine for trespassing on the land as the car did enter, but is there an argument against being "parked" there?

Ive attached the notice with scribble all over the identifiable bits (hopefully)

[ostell]

Edit your post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred, use "the driver......" etc.

Please unscribble the PCN so that the dates can be seen and even the period of parking.

The PCN does not comply with the requirements of POFA to be able to transfer liability from the unknown driver to the keeper.

*

[Lini]

thank you so much - I hope I have done this correctly

[Lini]

just to update, I did upload a picture of the back as an attachment but I don't think it uploaded (this might contradict what you said re the transfer of liability - im so sorry for that)
*

[ostell]

The dates top right,* You did post up the reverse previously

[Lini]

hope this is better

I have also attached an

old

google earth picture so you can see the car park - Ive very skilfully added where my car was recorded entering and exiting the grounds. I don't know if the signage is the same at the moment but I will be going after work to take some pictures - if there is anything that I need to look out for in particular please let me know. I don't recall that location having any signs re trespassing on private property and therefore I guess my question is how do you define parking and how can they prove my car was parked as opposed to just being on their grounds (as there was still a passenger in the car with the engine on)

*

[Lini]

hi All, As expected im still being hounded by this company and all their friends and the debt is now over £200 but im fine with that - not feeling the pressure. Happy to go to court now. I just wanted to check something out. I have recently gone back to have a look to check the signs.
The signs state that You must enter your car details in the electronic screen at the bar in the pub and any breaking of these rules will result in a fine, however, the pub has a board at the other entrance that says different things all the time - this contradicts what it says on the sign.. just wanted your thoughts...as the rules of the car park seem to be quite fluid! Either way i will go to court now - I've come this far - Just wondered if there was any defence here. thank you so much

[ostell]

So you didn't go past the signs while entering?

Consider this:
The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.


Also the NTK failed to give the warning of keeper liability as required by 9 (2) (f) so cannot transfer liability

There is conflict on signs. Who is lady on stall?

[Lini]

my car was on the land when the pub was closed early in lockdown earlier this year, my mother a passenger in the car had been shielding and it was her first time out of the house and started to feel unwell (in what we established was a panic attack) the car pulled into the car park for her to stop open the car door to get some air, the driver ran out to get her a cold drink while she was still in the car, returned, stayed there for a few minutes while she calmed down and then my car left the car park 18 minutes later. The pub was closed and the stall was closed.

The stall refers (i imagine) to the bagel stand in the grounds of the carpark but the terms on the actual notice dont reference the woman on the stall at all - so they are contradictory. I will try to understand the subject of the sign being of a forbidding nature - i dont have a massive brain - but i can read and i will look at the case that you have referenced : ) really appreciate your help Ostell

[Lini]

oh and the entrance that my car took into the park was a side entrance and the honest truth is in the moment the driver didn't see the signs - the other entrance with the blackboard was chained off i believe, although at the time the driver didn't see this entrance to the grounds anyway.
the driver entered the grounds to the right of the picture below.

I have done a bit of recon since as you can see!

[ostell]

So for the contract to be formed you have to see the signs

[Lini]

do you recommend that i respond to them in detail (acknowledging the driver) or should i just say that i contest the ticket and wait for them to take me to court?

[ostell]

Try not to identify the driver if you don't need to. Write as the keeper using "the driver"

[Lini]

hiya

Happy New Year, I hope this email finds anyone who reads it healthy and feeling as well as possible under the circumstances!

To give an update, I received another letter from Civil Enforcement on 22nd December with a PAP. IT said, if you do not pay or respond within 30 days of this letter then we will commence proceedings against you to recover the unpaid debt etc etc blah blah.

I responded via their website. I said that I was not the driver. I noted that the terms of the car park were in direct contradiction to a chalk board displayed on the land giving different information, stating that drivers should give their details to the woman on the "stall" within 10 minutes (I think it said 10 minutes, the chalk made it unclear) in order to avoid receiving a ticket. The information on that chalk board has changed several times since the day that the "offence" occurred, and I sent them photographic evidence. I said that the information seemed intentionally misleading and it wasn't clear to anyone entering that land what the terms of parking were. I told them that I felt it was inappropriate for the landowners/Parking company to provide deliberately contradictory information in order to generate revenue.
I said that I was prepared to go to court.

I have received a letter back from them today (within the 30 days on their letter 22nd Dec) Saying we have given you numerous opportunities to appeal the ticket but its too late and therefore if I don't pay them £190 within 2 weeks that court proceedings will be issued against me without further notice.

I will go ahead there is no way that I am going to back down, This year has been horrendous for everybody, Without giving a "sob story" I have also had two surgeries since June and so ill admit, I have put off dealing with it until I received the PAP documents.

Pls let me know if you can offer any advice with regards to the court process and anything that I should prepare

thank you so much

Lynsey