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DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

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  • DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

    Hope someone can help with a SORN question.

    To cut a very long story short

    my son's car became undriveable so bought another.
    Phoned DVLA after getting a fine for no insurance because the vehicle wasn't SORN. He paid it and asked the DVLA what he need to do now. They told him
    what he needed to do to SORN it as he hadn't received the log book from the DVLA and couldn't do it online. He was told to send in a letter which he did.

    After a couple of months he got a summons from Stevenage Court for not having insurance. This for the same continuing offence.
    He wrote to them and explained he'd sent a letter and lo and behold, notification and tax refund was received the next day and dated back to the receipt by them of the letter.

    He has now just received a further letter saying that as the SORN was backdated the offence of no insurance still stands albeit well after the date that the vehicle has been SORN'd.

    He has an acknowledgment from them stating "Your SORN starts on 11/09/2015" Summons states that he had no insurance on the 6/10/2015??

    Is this legal??
    Surely if the vehicle has an official SORN date and the tax refunded back to the 11th,
    how then can they say it was uninsured after that time?


    Any help would be gratefully received.
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

    Short answer is no they can't, as you say the SORN is proof that it was covered at the date of the letter sent. If the SORN penalty was paid prior then he has nothing to worry about - DVLA are a nightmare.
    Check out some useful guides below

    A guide to voluntary termination
    Seting aside a CCJ
    Completing an N180 Form (Courtesy of Jaguarsuk)

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    LEGAL DISCLAIMER
    Please be aware that this is a public forum and is therefore accessible to anyone. The content I post on this forum is not intended to be legal advice nor does it establish any client-lawyer type relationship between you and me. Some of the content I post may include example wording, letters, or other similar responses but they are intended purely for informational and educational purposes. Using some or all of the content I post may fail to meet your needs that is specific to your situation. Therefore any use of my content is at your own risk and I cannot be held responsible in any way. It is always recommended that you seek independent legal advice and you can do this through the Law Society's Find a Solicitor database, by contacting your local Citizen's Advice Bureau or legal advice centres such as LawWorks. You may also be able to seek legal advice from your local university who may run a free (but limited) legal advice clinic to members of the public.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

      Thanks Rob for taking the time to respond. DVLA says the original penalty that was paid has nothing to do with any subsequent action. I'm only worried that the SORN starts when they decide to process it which could be months later than when they received the correspondence which is effectively what they are saying. The fact that it has been backdated seems, according to them, irrelevant even though their acknowledgement stating "Your SORN starts on 11/09/2015" and the offense of being uninsured is for the 27/10/2015.

      Very Bizarre.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

        Well if you think about it logically, they have supplied you evidence that the SORN date started on 11 September and if they took it to court how are they going to explain to the judge that the SORN date is irrelevant despite saying that no insurance notification starts from 27 October which is after the SORN date? Simple answer is they can't.

        I'm going to hazard a guess it will be one of their template letters probably the same or similar to what I've received from them before. There'll usually be some code for the letter at the bottom or near the top - half the time the letters they send to you don't even apply in your case!

        You could write back to them but you'll no doubt get another template letter from them. If the continue to send you letters write to them and request them to stop as you will consider action against them for harassment - usually stops after that
        Check out some useful guides below

        A guide to voluntary termination
        Seting aside a CCJ
        Completing an N180 Form (Courtesy of Jaguarsuk)

        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        LEGAL DISCLAIMER
        Please be aware that this is a public forum and is therefore accessible to anyone. The content I post on this forum is not intended to be legal advice nor does it establish any client-lawyer type relationship between you and me. Some of the content I post may include example wording, letters, or other similar responses but they are intended purely for informational and educational purposes. Using some or all of the content I post may fail to meet your needs that is specific to your situation. Therefore any use of my content is at your own risk and I cannot be held responsible in any way. It is always recommended that you seek independent legal advice and you can do this through the Law Society's Find a Solicitor database, by contacting your local Citizen's Advice Bureau or legal advice centres such as LawWorks. You may also be able to seek legal advice from your local university who may run a free (but limited) legal advice clinic to members of the public.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

          Many Thanks Rob for your reply. My only concern is that the last paragraph states "Your declared SORN on the 27th October" and "Your legal responsibility did not end until you received
          confirmation of your SORN from the DVLA. After reviewing you case I am satisfied blah blah.... The Acknowledgement says that it was "Printed on the 27th"

          It doesn't look like a template, no references as you suggest.

          Any advice you can give will put our minds at rest in this worrying development.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

            Are you able to upload the letter with personal info removed and I'll take a look at it?
            Check out some useful guides below

            A guide to voluntary termination
            Seting aside a CCJ
            Completing an N180 Form (Courtesy of Jaguarsuk)

            - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            LEGAL DISCLAIMER
            Please be aware that this is a public forum and is therefore accessible to anyone. The content I post on this forum is not intended to be legal advice nor does it establish any client-lawyer type relationship between you and me. Some of the content I post may include example wording, letters, or other similar responses but they are intended purely for informational and educational purposes. Using some or all of the content I post may fail to meet your needs that is specific to your situation. Therefore any use of my content is at your own risk and I cannot be held responsible in any way. It is always recommended that you seek independent legal advice and you can do this through the Law Society's Find a Solicitor database, by contacting your local Citizen's Advice Bureau or legal advice centres such as LawWorks. You may also be able to seek legal advice from your local university who may run a free (but limited) legal advice clinic to members of the public.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

              I'll have a go Rob. I'm new to this site so will have to try and figure my way through it.

              Thanks a lot.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

                If you click on the Go advanced button when you reply, there will be a paperclip button if you click on that you can then attach your image to upload, then click the close button and submit reply.
                Check out some useful guides below

                A guide to voluntary termination
                Seting aside a CCJ
                Completing an N180 Form (Courtesy of Jaguarsuk)

                - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                LEGAL DISCLAIMER
                Please be aware that this is a public forum and is therefore accessible to anyone. The content I post on this forum is not intended to be legal advice nor does it establish any client-lawyer type relationship between you and me. Some of the content I post may include example wording, letters, or other similar responses but they are intended purely for informational and educational purposes. Using some or all of the content I post may fail to meet your needs that is specific to your situation. Therefore any use of my content is at your own risk and I cannot be held responsible in any way. It is always recommended that you seek independent legal advice and you can do this through the Law Society's Find a Solicitor database, by contacting your local Citizen's Advice Bureau or legal advice centres such as LawWorks. You may also be able to seek legal advice from your local university who may run a free (but limited) legal advice clinic to members of the public.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

                  Originally posted by R0b View Post
                  Are you able to upload the letter with personal info removed and I'll take a look at it?
                  Originally posted by Stuffedagain View Post
                  I'll have a go Rob. I'm new to this site so will have to try and figure my way through it.

                  Thanks a lot.
                  You could email it to me for uploading if you want?? kati@legalbeagles.info ... just put a link to your thread in the email so I can find it xx
                  Debt is like any other trap, easy enough to get into, but hard enough to get out of.

                  It doesn't matter where your journey begins, so long as you begin it...

                  recte agens confido

                  ~~~~~

                  Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                  I can be emailed if you need my help loading pictures/documents to your thread. My email address is Kati@legalbeagles.info
                  But please include a link to your thread so I know who you are.

                  Specialist advice can be sought via our sister site JustBeagle

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

                    Just mailed to you Kati, thanks a lot.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

                      Thanks a lot Rob, I've e-mailed to Kati but will try to upload as well.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

                        Originally posted by Stuffedagain View Post
                        Just mailed to you Kati, thanks a lot.
                        Got them xx
                        Attached Files
                        Debt is like any other trap, easy enough to get into, but hard enough to get out of.

                        It doesn't matter where your journey begins, so long as you begin it...

                        recte agens confido

                        ~~~~~

                        Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                        I can be emailed if you need my help loading pictures/documents to your thread. My email address is Kati@legalbeagles.info
                        But please include a link to your thread so I know who you are.

                        Specialist advice can be sought via our sister site JustBeagle

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

                          thanks [MENTION=49370]Kati[/MENTION], [MENTION=66943]Stuffedagain[/MENTION] I'll give a more in depth response to this but I'm sure we can do a defence to this - I'll post up more information soon
                          Check out some useful guides below

                          A guide to voluntary termination
                          Seting aside a CCJ
                          Completing an N180 Form (Courtesy of Jaguarsuk)

                          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                          LEGAL DISCLAIMER
                          Please be aware that this is a public forum and is therefore accessible to anyone. The content I post on this forum is not intended to be legal advice nor does it establish any client-lawyer type relationship between you and me. Some of the content I post may include example wording, letters, or other similar responses but they are intended purely for informational and educational purposes. Using some or all of the content I post may fail to meet your needs that is specific to your situation. Therefore any use of my content is at your own risk and I cannot be held responsible in any way. It is always recommended that you seek independent legal advice and you can do this through the Law Society's Find a Solicitor database, by contacting your local Citizen's Advice Bureau or legal advice centres such as LawWorks. You may also be able to seek legal advice from your local university who may run a free (but limited) legal advice clinic to members of the public.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

                            Have look if this works Rob

                            Thanks
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: DVLA Court Summnons SORN.

                              @Stuffedagain lets have some fun with this, i'll do each point on the letter in turn.

                              DVLA in conjunction with MIB ... Road Safety Act 2006 ... ensure all vehicles taxed at all times
                              First mistake by the DVLA is that they seem to argue that this is for the same continuing offence. Here is what the Road Safety Act 2006 says:

                              Section 144C
                              where a person commits an offence … the person may be discharged of any liability to conviction by payment of a fixed penalty notice
                              Section 144C (2)
                              a person may not be convicted of any offence if he pays the fixed penalty within 21 days.
                              Now, if your son paid the fine within 21 days then his liability is discharged for that offence. The DVLA would then have to issue a new penalty notice for the same which would be entirely separate and contain new details such as having a further 21 days to pay the penalty or risk a summons to court. The DVLA cannot summons a person within 21 days, the person must have that time to make payment and discharge any liability.



                              Now onto the SORN problem

                              Page 1 of the letter:

                              You should contact the DVLA if you are not in receipt of an acknowledgement letter. Until such time as the acknowledgement letter is received the registered keeper cannot assume their vehicle has been SORN.
                              you declared SORN on 27/10/15 … after the summons issued on 19/10/15.
                              Page 2 of the letter:
                              Your legal responsibility does not end until you received confirmation of your SORN from the DVLA.
                              It's a shame this forum doesn't have a poo icon or i'd be using it here! There is no legal requirement for you to receive an acknowledgement from the DVLA to discharge your duty of SORN. Section 7 of the Interpretation act gives you a defence to this, it is up to the DVLA to prove undeniably that they didn't receive it. Either way they have acknowledged your SORN and so it has been applied retrospectively hence the SORN saying that the start date is 11 September. The DVLA clearly use this and scare people into paying further costs, and alot of the time will rock up to court on the day before dropping the case. Have a google of some of the cases below and you'll see what I mean.

                              DVLA v James Collins
                              DVLA v Duncan Peck

                              DVLA v O’Sullivan, Staines County Court October 2009
                              DVLA vs Kennedy - convicted at magistrates, appealed case but DVLA withdrew offering no evidence knowing that they didn't have a leg to stand on and would have set a precedent.


                              Do you have a contact number or email address for this Kellie Ingram? I would be inclined to explain all of the above over the phone and in email inviting her to drop the case. She might try and use some 1807 case law which says that to deliver means handing in person i.e. hand it to the DVLA at swansea but the case of Peck (i think) the judge criticised this as being non-sensical in this day and age and cannot expect every person to hand deliver to swansea, post is sufficient.

                              She would be well aware of these cases and I would certainly point it out to her and threaten to report her to the SRA as she is in breach of SRA Code of Conduct (Outcomes 11.1 - "Do not take unfair advantage of third parties either in a professional or personal capacity") and Principle 1 of the SRA Principles. You could potentially argue that deliberate mis-interpreation of the law amounts to fraudulent mis-representation which again would be a serious offence and the SRA would likely strike you off for something like that, albeit it is probably harder to prove but nonetheless something to remind her of.

                              She or they might offer you a discount payment but I would refuse, the whole thing to me is flawed from head to toe, and even if she does drop it I would still report her to the SRA

                              Hope this helps!

                              Check out some useful guides below

                              A guide to voluntary termination
                              Seting aside a CCJ
                              Completing an N180 Form (Courtesy of Jaguarsuk)

                              - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                              LEGAL DISCLAIMER
                              Please be aware that this is a public forum and is therefore accessible to anyone. The content I post on this forum is not intended to be legal advice nor does it establish any client-lawyer type relationship between you and me. Some of the content I post may include example wording, letters, or other similar responses but they are intended purely for informational and educational purposes. Using some or all of the content I post may fail to meet your needs that is specific to your situation. Therefore any use of my content is at your own risk and I cannot be held responsible in any way. It is always recommended that you seek independent legal advice and you can do this through the Law Society's Find a Solicitor database, by contacting your local Citizen's Advice Bureau or legal advice centres such as LawWorks. You may also be able to seek legal advice from your local university who may run a free (but limited) legal advice clinic to members of the public.

                              Comment

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