FPN fun

[charitynjw]

Hi

I've just today received a nice surprise (Not!)

I hired a vehicle at 11.30ish a.m. 22/02/2016.
14.04 was allegedly 'captured' via a fixed speed camera - 35 in a 30 zone.
At present, it is the hire co. who have given me the heads-up (plus a £35 admin bill!)
They have informed the police of my details via a NIP.
Date of offence 22/02/2016.
NIP 04/03/2016.
Hire co's letter to me dated 22/03/2016
The police have not yet contacted me.

The National Guidelines indicate 10% + 2mph, which I make up to & including 35mph.
I know that some folks say disregard the guidelines - the offence is 'absolute'; but if that's the case, why are they quoted?
Also, the camera is positioned on a fairly steep downward slope (convenient, that!). About half a mile further on is another camera, which did not trip. so obviously the average speed between the two was lower than the speed limit (allowing for tolerances).

I honestly was being very careful with my speed - it was a hire vehicle, I wasn't used to driving it & I certainly was conscious of the hassle a speeding tug would cause.
This has also come as a complete surprise; it was a 9-seater vehicle filled with passengers, & not one mentioned a 'flash'.

Given the above, is there any legs in challenging callibration?
Or arguing 'average speed between cameras'?

It just seems so damn draconian.

(A couple of years back I was pulled over doing 25 in a 30 zone...................for being too slow! Damned if you do, etc, etc!)

@mystery1 - any chance you could give some pointers, please?

Btw, the vehicle had been hired to ferry family around for my father's funeral. I was driving back from the cemetery.

[mystery1]

Re: FPN fun

Enforcement usually starts at 10% +2 so 35. Doesn't mena 34mph is legal, just that it's usually ignored.

As for average speed, if i drove the M1 at 100mph for a bit then stopped for lunch then 100mph for some more my average speed would be under 70mph. I doubt i'd get off

I'd ask the hire company when they got the NIP and if they are the registered keeper.

M1

[des8]

Re: FPN fun

Condolences on the passing of your father

is there any legs in challenging callibration?.

Probably not because if the recording device used has "Home Office Type Approval" Section 20 of Road Traffic Offenders’ Act 1988 allows for the evidence from TypeApproved and prescribed devices to be admissible in court by way of certification.
In other words if the camera is of an approved type its evidence will be accepted UNLESS you can show an unauthorised alteration has been made to the device.

[charitynjw]

Re: FPN fun

Enforcement usually starts at 10% +2 so 35. Doesn't mena 34mph is legal, just that it's usually ignored.

As for average speed, if i drove the M1 at 100mph for a bit then stopped for lunch then 100mph for some more my average speed would be under 70mph. I doubt i'd get off

I'd ask the hire company when they got the NIP and if they are the registered keeper.

M1

Hi mystery1

Speed limit 30mph + 10% = 33mph + 2mph = 35mph...............inclusive.
ie anything over 35 qualifies.

To give the 10% + 2mph guidance, then start enforcement at 35mph is........ bad math! (Maybe the Mag will be a retired math teacher, lol!)

The hire co has a written disclaimer re speeding, parking fines etc.
However, a thought has occurred to me.
The hire co T&Cs say the vehicle is roadworthy. The police are claiming I was travelling at 35mph. I know (honestly) that I was not, as I was keeping a very careful eye on the speedo (I wasn't going to get a tug for speeding on a day like that, in full view of all the relatives).
So, the police aren't allowing any tolerance for their equipment or the hire car speedometer.
Shouldn't the hire co be in the dock with me as a co-defendent?

:incourt:

[charitynjw]

Re: FPN fun

Condolences on the passing of your father
.

Thanks, des8

[des8]

Re: FPN fun

My understanding is that enforcement will normally occur at 10%+ 2 ie AT 35 mph not over 35 mph.

If the vehicle has been altered eg non stock size tyres fitted the speedometer will need recalibrating.
To succeed on showing the hire vehicle was faulty, you will need to hire the vehicle again to have calibration checked
Probably not worth the cost!

[mystery1]

Re: FPN fun

Hi mystery1

Speed limit 30mph + 10% = 33mph + 2mph = 35mph...............inclusive.
ie anything over 35 qualifies.

To give the 10% + 2mph guidance, then start enforcement at 35mph is........ bad math! (Maybe the Mag will be a retired math teacher, lol!)

The hire co has a written disclaimer re speeding, parking fines etc.
However, a thought has occurred to me.
The hire co T&Cs say the vehicle is roadworthy. The police are claiming I was travelling at 35mph. I know (honestly) that I was not, as I was keeping a very careful eye on the speedo (I wasn't going to get a tug for speeding on a day like that, in full view of all the relatives).
So, the police aren't allowing any tolerance for their equipment or the hire car speedometer.
Shouldn't the hire co be in the dock with me as a co-defendent?

:incourt:

Nope.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/r...notices/#speed

Speed limit: 30 mph
ACPO charging threshold: 35 mph
Summons: 50 mph

Enforcement starts at 35 mph.

So, the police aren't allowing any tolerance for their equipment or the hire car speedometer.

The police measure actual speed and are not saying what your speedo read. At 35 mph it probably read 37/8 mph.

Your defence rests on the failure of the NIP being delivered within 14 days to the registered keeper, which as yet, is unclear until the hire company give you the information i told you to ask for.

If the vehicle wasn't speeding, then that is also a defence, but if lost, very costly. How do you prove it against the CPS machine ?

M1

[charitynjw]

Re: FPN fun

My understanding is that enforcement will normally occur at 10%+ 2 ie AT 35 mph not over 35 mph.

If the vehicle has been altered eg non stock size tyres fitted the speedometer will need recalibrating.
To succeed on showing the hire vehicle was faulty, you will need to hire the vehicle again to have calibration checked
Probably not worth the cost!

Ok, lets look at it this way

34mph is ok, yes?
But 34mph is less than (30 + 10%) +2
(30 + 10%) + 2 is more than 34, & less than 36.
It is, in fact (&in math) exactly 35.

So enforcement should begin in excess of 35mph.

[michael]

Re: FPN fun

Des is right. Up to 10%+1 is ignored, 10%+2 is enforced

[charitynjw]

Re: FPN fun

Des is right. Up to 10%+1 is ignored, 10%+2 is enforced

Thanks, michael.

So the allowable tolerance is, in this case, 10% + 1mph.
10% + 2mph = cash cow time!

Maybe, given the surrounding situation, mitigation?

[des8]

Re: FPN fun

M is right (as always:tinysmile_twink_t2 in that you may have a defence if you can convince the court the NIP was not received by registered keeper within 14 days of the offence.
The police only have to believe it arrived on time.
It is dated on a Friday, and delivery needed to be made on the Monday following.

IMO it probably not worth going to court to plead mitigation.
Most unlikely that you will get the fixed penalty reduced and you might even have it increased

[mystery1]

Re: FPN fun

M is right (as always:tinysmile_twink_t2 in that you may have a defence if you can convince the court the NIP was not received by registered keeper within 14 days of the offence.
The police only have to believe it arrived on time.
It is dated on a Friday, and delivery needed to be made on the Monday following.

Of course if it wasn't known it'd be deemed served on the Tuesday. However, the hire company won't deny getting it for you and will have records and might not even be the registered keeper in any event.

M1

[charitynjw]

Re: FPN fun

M is right (as always:tinysmile_twink_t2 in that you may have a defence if you can convince the court the NIP was not received by registered keeper within 14 days of the offence.
The police only have to believe it arrived on time.
It is dated on a Friday, and delivery needed to be made on the Monday following.

IMO it probably not worth going to court to plead mitigation.
Most unlikely that you will get the fixed penalty reduced and you might even have it increased

Of course if it wasn't known it'd be deemed served on the Tuesday. However, the hire company won't deny getting it for you and will have records and might not even be the registered keeper in any event.

M1

Thanks guys.

I'll check with the hire company & let you know.

[michael]

Re: FPN fun

Hi


This has also come as a complete surprise; it was a 9-seater vehicle filled with passengers, & not one mentioned a 'flash'.

Quite possibly one of the new digital cameras that has an infra red flash which produces no visible 'flash'

[wales01man]

Re: FPN fun

Think the Defence is no defence mitigating may help with fine and points