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CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

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  • #16
    Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

    Originally posted by liotchik View Post
    Thank you Bluebottle.

    What practical steps would it to take to back claim all the monies paid under such a contract?
    In the case of a PCN issued by a local authority, which is authorised by way of Statutory Instrument and you have incurred it, then, yes, they can. That is fair and reasonable.

    What would not be fair or reasonable is expecting you to pay parking charge notices issued by private parking companies. My own view of these speculative invoices is that if they were put to strict proof and the test of what is reasonable, as prescribed under the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (as amended) which places the onus of proof on the provider of the contract - reversed onus - were applied, PPCs would struggle to prove their case. If a vehicle hire company tried to use a clause in their hire documents to exclude or restrict a hirer's right to challenge a PPC's claims, then, IMHO, it would be unreasonable.

    In order to claim back monies paid for parking charge notices issued by PPCs, you would need to issue proceedings in the Small Claims Court and show the clause in the hire agreement requiring you to pay PPC speculative invoices was unfair/unreasonable in the circumstances as it either attempted to exclude or restrict or excluded or restricted your right to defend such claims. The hirer would have to show the clause was fair and/or reasonable in the circumstances. Make a careful note of the phrase "in the circumstances".

    However, as Wombats has pointed out, a lot of hire companies now pass on PPCs speculative invoices to customers rather than add them to a customer's costs due to the high rate of successful appeals.
    Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

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    • #17
      Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

      Double


      Last edited by liotchik; 23rd June 2014, 21:10:PM.

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      • #18
        Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

        deleted
        Last edited by liotchik; 23rd June 2014, 22:06:PM.

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        • #19
          Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

          Originally posted by bluebottle View Post
          If a vehicle hire company tried to use a clause in their hire documents to exclude or restrict a hirer's right to challenge a PPC's claims, then, IMHO, it would be unreasonable.
          Actually my understanding of Europcar's Terms & Conditions exactly what you say: they exclude or restrict a hires's right to challenge any claims point blank. Let me quote the " Charges" section of Europcar's Rental Agreement Terms & Condition one more time:

          3.1.7 All costs arising from any congestion or parking charges (or failure to pay same) or a breach of any parking restrictions or a road traffic offence or any other offence involving the Vehicle including costs from the Vehicle being clamped, seized or towed away & any charges/costs (or failure to pay same) of the relevant organisation ( if & when it asks for these payments) plus an admin fee of £36
          Last edited by liotchik; 23rd June 2014, 21:28:PM.

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          • #20
            Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

            Have you talked to Europcar about this?

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            • #21
              Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

              Originally posted by wales01man View Post
              Have you talked to Europcar about this?
              I am about to. Through a court.

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              • #22
                Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                Courts expect you to try and sort it out before you involve them letters before action ETC there is a protocol to go through have you tried to resolve this before Court action.

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                • #23
                  Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                  Originally posted by wales01man View Post
                  Courts expect you to try and sort it out before you involve them letters before action ETC there is a protocol to go through have you tried to resolve this before Court action.
                  I know the procedure. But anyway thank you for reminding. At this stage I'm trying to understand on what grounds to approach them.

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                  • #24
                    Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                    Originally posted by liotchik View Post
                    I know the procedure. But anyway thank you for reminding. At this stage I'm trying to understand on what grounds to approach them.
                    How far have you got with your understanding?

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                    • #25
                      Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                      Originally posted by Wombats View Post
                      How far have you got with your understanding?
                      Since Europcar never transfers PCN liability to the hirer to allow him/her to make representations (over the last 3 years I have accumulated so many of those £101 charges that I can prove this point without a shadow of doubt) it is either a case of an incorrect hire agreement (that not meets the requirements in schedule 2 of the road traffic (owner liability) regulations 2000) or Europcar is in breach of its own contract.

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                      • #26
                        Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                        If you're going to court, try to get some professional advice first. I'd hate to see you run up costs and lose out. It can be surprising what happens in a court room no matter how strong your evidence.

                        If you can't afford professional legal advice, at least pop it into the court claims section to see what the knowledgeable people on here think - just trying to protect you! :beagle:

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                        • #27
                          Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                          Ask them in writing if they know the difference between a PCN L:A, and a Parking Charge Notice, aka invoice. use the reply in writing to help your case, if you are3 hell bent on litigation, as it may be crucial that they treat both the same, one being payable absolutely subject to appeal, the other having the status of Invoice only, being in thermain speculative

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                          • #28
                            Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                            Originally posted by Wombats View Post
                            If you're going to court, try to get some professional advice first. I'd hate to see you run up costs and lose out. It can be surprising what happens in a court room no matter how strong your evidence.

                            If you can't afford professional legal advice, at least pop it into the court claims section to see what the knowledgeable people on here think - just trying to protect you! :beagle:
                            Thank you Wombats. Is my understanding of the case essence correct? (My previous post).

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                              Originally posted by bizzybob View Post
                              Ask them in writing if they know the difference between a PCN L:A, and a Parking Charge Notice, aka invoice. use the reply in writing to help your case, if you are3 hell bent on litigation, as it may be crucial that they treat both the same, one being payable absolutely subject to appeal, the other having the status of Invoice only, being in thermain speculative
                              Thank you for your advice bizybob. What is a "PCN L:A"?

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                              • #30
                                Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

                                As a layman I would ask if you have so many of these charges over 3 years why have you not taken this action before?
                                And why do you get so many parking fines or notices the average person ay het 1 in a lifetime after the first most would check the signs?
                                What has been Europcars replies to your complaints? I am no trying to start an argument but taking on a big company is not going to be easy.

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