CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

[liotchik]

Hi everyone!

I wonder if somebody can help me.

Over the last 3 years I have been working as a delivery driver renting a van from Europcar. Part of their hire contract is agreeing to all their charges which in practice means that any CCTV issued parking/traffic violation ticket goes straight to the registered keeper (which is Europcar), gets immediately paid by them and you, as a driver, get notified post factum with a debit note and an invoice stating the amount of fine (usually £65) + £30 of admin charges + £6 of VAT = £101.


My question is this:


- Does Europcar violates my fundamental right of appeal by such a practice?

Kind regards,
SD.

[wales01man]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Is this stated in the contract you signed?
If yes why did you agree to it they could have said ok we will not do this I expect they would not have hired you the Van

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Is this stated in the contract you signed?
If yes why did you agree to it they could have said ok we will not do this I expect they would not have hired you the Van

Yes, it is clearly stated in the Rental Agreement Terms & Conditions "Charges" section:

3.1.7 All costs arising from any congestion or parking charges (or failure to pay same) or a breach of any parking restrictions or a road traffic offence or any other offence involving the Vehicle including costs from the Vehicle being clamped, seized or towed away & any charges/costs (or failure to pay same) of the relevant organisation ( if & when it asks for these payments) plus an admin fee of £36

In reality you either accept all the terms and conditions and have a hire, or else you have nothing. In realty they get you to agree to pay any charges..."of the relevant organisation ( if & when it asks for these payments)..."or, in other words, with no chance of disputing such charges what so ever.

That's the whole point I'm trying to prove - Europcar implicitly gets its customers to waive their right of appeal for any alleged road offences during the hire.

Is it a good trading practice?
Is the right of appeal considered to be a fundamental right in the uk?

Regards,
SD.

[Wombats]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

This has raised its head quite a few times. Basically you have voluntarily signed away your right to appeal. However, fairly often (usually seen where the vehicle is on contract hire through their job) people have gone to their employer and negotiated at least the chance to appeal - this is also seen with Parking Charge Notices. The person from whom you are hiring can either agree to a variation of the terms or not.

On the positive side for you, if the new legislation goes through as it is at present, parking violations will have to be placed on your windscreen by a CEO. This would stop penalties for parking by CCTV (which doesn't make committing the offence correct, it just means you're more likely to get away with it). Traffic violations such as driving in a bus lane etc... will still be covered by CCTV.

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

This has raised its head quite a few times. Basically you have voluntarily signed away your right to appeal.

This is pretty much clear. Can I legally fight this "voluntary" signing away my right to appeal?

[wales01man]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

they could cancel the contract?

[Wombats]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

You've signed a statement of liability. IMO this is a contractual term and as such legally binding. In answer to your question, you can legally fight anything. The real question is, is it worth it? I suspect the answer is no.

Pepipoo are the real experts here and you may find the post by Swivel in the link below of interest:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversio...hp/t83180.html

They may provide a better way forward for you than we can here.

[bluebottle]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

I think it would take a test case to determine whether a contractual term which appears to require you to relinquish your right to defend yourself against litigation. However, the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (as amended) might apply, in which case the hire firm would have to prove such a clause in the hire contract was fair and reasonable in the circumstances.

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

You've signed a statement of liability. IMO this is a contractual term and as such legally binding. In answer to your question, you can legally fight anything. The real question is, is it worth it? I suspect the answer is no.

Pepipoo are the real experts here and you may find the post by Swivel in the link below of interest:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversio...hp/t83180.html

They may provide a better way forward for you than we can here.

Thank you Wombats.

The point I'm trying to make here is that there must be a way of stopping companies to create such binding contracts which by application mean signing away some basic rights.

Regards,
SD.

[bluebottle]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Thank you Wombats.

The point I'm trying to make here is that there must be a way of stopping companies to create such binding contracts which by application mean signing away right to appeal.

Regards,
SD.

The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (as amended) may apply. This prohibits clauses which are unfair and/or unreasonable. It applies to both consumer and trade contracts.

[ostell]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Are we talking about Penalty Charge Notices here or Parking Charge Notices?

Parking Charge Notices are not a fine, just a speculative invoice and therefore your contract probably doesn't include them.

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

I think it would take a test case to determine whether a contractual term which appears to require you to relinquish your right to defend yourself against litigation. However, the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (as amended) might apply, in which case the hire firm would have to prove such a clause in the hire contract was fair and reasonable in the circumstances.

Thank you Bluebottle.

What practical steps would it to take to back claim all the monies paid under such a contract?

[liotchik]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

Are we talking about Penalty Charge Notices here or Parking Charge Notices?

Both.

[bizzybob]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

It is possible that Europcar paying any "parking Charge Notice" may be a breach as they are invoices rather than a fione, and many are of dubious legality especially the ANPR ones where courier made deliveries and returns for collections later, the ANPR books him in at say 8:00 am, then books him out at 5:00 pm sends invouce for overstay, when actually was elsewhere in the area in the interim Parking Eye are good at that one with Taxi Drivers where they are in and out all day. That term adversely affects your right to challenge. Might be worth asking Europcar whether that term is compliant as an invoice is not a fine.

That would need a test case to see whether the term covered a Parking Charge Notice aka invoice as well as a fine

[Wombats]

Re: CCTV issued PCNs for a contract hire vehicle.

It is possible that Europcar paying any "parking Charge Notice" may be a breach as they are invoices rather than a fione, and many are of dubious legality especially the ANPR ones where courier made deliveries and returns for collections later, the ANPR books him in at say 8:00 am, then books him out at 5:00 pm sends invouce for overstay, when actually was elsewhere in the area in the interim Parking Eye are good at that one with Taxi Drivers where they are in and out all day. That term adversely affects your right to challenge. Might be worth asking Europcar whether that term is compliant as an invoice is not a fine.

That would need a test case to see whether the term covered a Parking Charge Notice aka invoice as well as a fine

A lot of hire companies (don't know about contract hire) pass Parking Charge notices on now rather than pay and add the cost as so many appeals are successful.

Did you join Pepipoo?