pcn 50L

[GOONERLAND]

just received a cctv pcn 50L I think there may be grounds to get it cancelled on evidence provided.
THE CCTVfootage shows a the vehicle making the turn
However the footage does not include the sign showning the no left turn .
The footage is approx 5 sec's and simply shows the car turning .
I was led to believe that the evidence should provided footage of the relevant sign ?
Am i clutching at straws?? or is this a legal loop hole that has not been covered by an overzealous
Local Authority that got bad publicity for tucking a smart car with a camera on a side road for years and now has shown
'transparancy ' by installing a cctv albeit in the wrong place??

[michael]

Re: pcn 50L

The contravention is failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibited turn. It's not making the prohibited turn in itself. The video should clearly show the sign and not just the vehicle making a turn, which may or may not be prohibited.

Are you sure the whole video lasts just 5 secs?

[GOONERLAND]

Re: pcn 50L

The contravention is failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibited turn. It's not making the prohibited turn in itself. The video should clearly show the sign and not just the vehicle making a turn, which may or may not be prohibited.

Are you sure the whole video lasts just 5 secs?

sorry 10 secs
and the exact wording is
50L PERFORMING A PROHIBITED TURN (no left turn)

in XXXXXXX RD , POST CODE(cctv)
THANKS FOR SHOWING AN INTEREST

[michael]

Re: pcn 50L

sorry 10 secs
and the exact wording is
50L PERFORMING A PROHIBITED TURN (no left turn)

The council video must show evidence that the turn is prohibited by including the sign in a continuous film either before or after the contravention occurs

[bluebottle]

Re: pcn 50L

1. Was the CCTV footage obtained with a fixed location or mobile CCTV camera?
2. Was the camera equipment used certified for use for enforcement purposes?
3. Is there a valid Traffic Regulation Order (Traffic Management Order in the TfL area) in force for the "No Left Turn" at the location in question?

Most local authorities are used to the "Was the operator properly trained?" challenge, but few expect or are prepared for the challenge "I require you to produce to me a copy of the relevant Traffic Regulation Order/Traffic Management Order relating to the applicable prohibition." This is in addition to what Michael has said in his post, that is, the sign must be clearly shown in the CCTV footage. No adjudicator or judge viewing CCTV footage not showing a No Left Turn sign is going to look favourably on a local authority's evidence, even if it is accompanied by a statement insisting the sign was correctly displayed and the prohibition correctly constructed.

[GOONERLAND]

Re: pcn 50L

fixed location camera yes - the other 2 i will have to question in the appeal ?(i looked on line at the councils TRO but they only list recent orders)
So i think i will appeal ??
IF i get a few more confident responses thanks guys

[bluebottle]

Re: pcn 50L

fixed location camera yes - the other 2 i will have to question in the appeal ?(i looked on line at the councils TRO but they only list recent orders) Ask for the TRO now. The local authority is required to produce a copy of a TRO to anyone so requiring them to do so. If there is no valid TRO, the No Left Turn prohibition is unenforceable and any fines are unlawful, if not, illegal. You can usually tell there is no valid TRO in force because local authorities suddenly drop the matter with no plausible explanation.
So i think i will appeal ?? See if there is a valid TRO first.
IF i get a few more confident responses thanks guys

@@@@

[GOONERLAND]

Re: pcn 50L

checked with a few locals and the signs(no left turn) HAVE BEEN under the trafficlight sequence for a good few years so i m pretty sure they must have a valid TMO .:colbert:

[bluebottle]

Re: pcn 50L

checked with a few locals and the signs(no left turn) HAVE BEEN under the trafficlight sequence for a good few years so i m pretty sure they must have a valid TMO .:colbert:

Don't assume. Check it out. You would be surprised how local authorities put these prohibitions up, rake in shedloads in fines, then someone asks for a copy of the relevant TMO and the local authority cannot produce it... because there isn't one in force. That is when the proverbial hits the air conditioning. The golden rule is "If in doubt, check it out." Being a cynical ex-copper, my rule is "Always check it out".

[teaboy2]

Re: pcn 50L

checked with a few locals and the signs(no left turn) HAVE BEEN under the trafficlight sequence for a good few years so i m pretty sure they must have a valid TMO .:colbert:

I climbed up a ladder and put a sign saying "NO LEFT TURN", only to find out it was at the wrong junction as you could only turn right!!

Point of the story is simple, humans make errors and its not unheard of for signage to be at the wrong junction, and wrongly enforced. Also signage should be displayed where it can be clearly seen. So if the traffic lights limit the view of the sign, they'd also be screwed too.

[GOONERLAND]

Re: pcn 50L

agree 100% WITH ALL THE VIEWS.
checked with some local forums and yes there is a tmo in place for this junction.
but the cctv still remains the same it does not show the signage.
should i appeal ???
PCN DATED 22nd (wife forgot to tell me that)SO 14 DAYS for appeal are up Monday
happy to pm the video if u want ?

[teaboy2]

Re: pcn 50L

its 14 days from date after its served on you. Just because its date 22nd, it doesn't mean you received it on the 22nd, not unless royal mail now operate at lightspeed.

[bluebottle]

Re: pcn 50L

agree 100% WITH ALL THE VIEWS.
checked with some local forums and yes there is a tmo in place for this junction.
but the cctv still remains the same it does not show the signage.
should i appeal ???
PCN DATED 22nd (wife forgot to tell me that)SO 14 DAYS for appeal are up Monday
happy to pm the video if u want ?

It is all very well looking at local forums. However, it can often be found that TROs/TMOs are defective in some way, e.g. signs do not conform to statutory requirements as regards specification, height, size, etc.. Small details like this can render a prohibition inoperable until it is rectified. Another ex-copper goes around checking traffic signs and restrictions conform to statutory requirements. He is the scourge of local authorities who see him as a menace. He is not and has saved motorists a sizeable amount of cash by highlighting and identifying local authorities who feel they can get away with fleecing the long-suffering motorist by use of dodgy traffic signage and illegal restrictions.

[michael]

Re: pcn 50L

Forget the TRO, camera certification etc for the moment, they will take time to obtain which is a luxury you don't have. You need to get an appeal in soonest.

You mention traffic lights. Is this a traffic light controlled junction? If so are you sure there are no 'No left turn' signs on the lights themselves which can be seen in the video?

[bluebottle]

Re: pcn 50L

Forget the TRO, camera certification etc for the moment, they will take time to obtain which is a luxury you don't have. You need to get an appeal in soonest.

You mention traffic lights. Is this a traffic light controlled junction? If so are you sure there are no 'No left turn' signs on the lights themselves which can be seen in the video?

If the FOIA is used, they have 20 days maximum to produce the TRO.