PCM registered Keeper

[Debz17]

Hi
please can you tell me I received a letter from PCM requesting either I give the details of the driver or I pay the PCN I am the registered keep but not the driver. Apparently there was a ticket on the windscreen for the driver. My question is am I obliged to give the drivers details as this was parked on private land.
Thanks in advance

[HandyAndy]

You are not obliged to provide the driver’s details. However, if you don’t, they will pursue you for the debt.

Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act which they quote and on which they rely to chase you for the debt is here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4

The information they have to provide you with is shown in Section 8 and it seems they have fulfilled those obligations. The information they have to have provided to the driver is shown on Section 7. You will have to check whether they have complied with those requirements.

If they have, I might be a good idea to pay the sum required (and get repayment from the driver).

[des8]

i would disagree with HandyAndy as it would seem that they have not complied with the conditions mandated in schedule 4 of PoFA2012 (has not specified the period of parking) (unless they have mentioned it elsewhere on the Notice to Keeper (NTK)

If you don't want to pay.... just give the parking company the name & address of the driver at the time of the event.

However it is easier for you , as keeper, than for the driver to avoid payment by disputing the charge.

If you post up a redacted copy of the whole NTK we may be able to point out where they have failed to comply with PoFA 2012 (Section 9 of schedule 4 applies to NTK)
First remove name& address, reg. number, NTK reference number) but leave in all dates and times

[HandyAndy]

Do you think this is insufficient?

"Issued 07:13. This notice relates to the period of parking that immediately preceded the time of issue…"

Or should a start time be provided?

[des8]

The act requires the notice specifies a period.
If they state an indeterminate period, it is hardly a specification.
Suppose the vehicle was only there for a few minutes while the driver read the signs and decided not to contract,,,, the parking company would have no case for breach of contract.
The act has been worded to prevent that type of shenanigans

We have just had a case which was won in court on this very point.
Some judges agree, others don't .... small claims track is a bit of a lottery!

The losing company in the case I refer to, have stated they intend to appeal, but I wonder if they will as if they lose they will always lose on this point in future.
The act requires the notice specifies a period

We have just had a case which was won in court on this very point.
Some judges agree, others don't .... small claims track is a bit of a lottery!

The losing company in the case I refer to, have stated they intend to appeal, but I wonder if they will as if they lose they will always lose on this point in future.

[HandyAndy]

We have just had a case which was won in court on this very point.
Some judges agree, others don't .... small claims track is a bit of a lottery!

I thought it might be but wasn't sure (parking matters are not my forte). I think in that position I would simply provide the driver's details and let him argue the point!

[Debz17]

Thanks

[des8]

Thanks for the NTK photo, but you have redacted the dates and location,

However, based on the what has been posted & if you do not intend to identify the driver but wish to dispute the charge yourself, you could write along the following lines:

Dear Sirs,
I have received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to specify the period of parking to which this notice applies as prescribed by section 9 (2) (e) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.
Yours etc

They probably won't even read your letter, but will send out a standard template response asking you to pay up.

Happy New year

[Debz17]

Happy New Year and thank you

[Debz17]

I have triple check pcn and I submit appeal or even pay if I wanted to what should I do just leave it??

[des8]

To be clear, are you saying that their online system does not recognise the PCN details?

[Debz17]

Yes I got another letter today and I noticed that PC numbers are not the same as the bigger PC number

[Debz17]

I haven’t tried log into the larger PC number I will wait on any advice

[Debz17]

des8 PC numbers are different

[des8]

well I don't know why they show differing numbers.
Perhaps the number in the larger font is for internal use by their ........ (insert your own description!) staff.

I would be sending the letter as in post 8, as I would have no intention whatsoever of giving them any money at all.
However if you intend to pay do so through the post with the payment slip provided, though why you would want to do that beats me.