Speeding ticket and failure to provide driver information

[muchenje]

Speeding ticket Norfolk & Suffolk manned equipment 35 in a 30. I received this ticket but havn't a clue whether it was me or my wife driving. The photographic evidence does not show the driver so I called te Norfolk & Suffolk ticket office. My call was logged. They sent more footage which again does not show the driver clearly and suggested we write in, which we did within the 28 days. We explained we checked diaries and cannot sign a plea if we don't know who was driving... No reply was received but the 28 days lapsed and now informed of a court referral notification for 1. Speedings & 2. Section 172 offence, which potentially carries a further 6 points. I am tempted to plea guilty to the speeding offence but not guilty to 'failure to give information of driver' because I made reasonable attempts to to clarify... any recommendations?

[HandyAndy]

"The person keeping the vehicle"' has a duty to provide the driver's details. As you have discovered, a prosecution will follow if no satisfactory response is received. There is a statutory defence to that charge which says you will not be convicted if you did not know who was driving and could not, after exercising “reasonable diligence”, find out who was.

Although there are occasional successes, it is not an easy defence to run (if it was, everybody would do it).

A conviction for failing to provide the driver's details carries six points, a hefty fine and an endorsement code (MS90) which will see your insurance premiums rocket for up to five years. A 100% increase in the first year is not unheard of. As an aside, it would not be an additional six points. Without a guilty plea, the speeding charge is a dead duck as the police do not know who was driving.

The pragmatic advice in your position would be to name the person most likely to have been driving, Unfortunately that opportunity has passed and you now face court action.

Presumably you have a "Single Justice Procedure Notice" which mentions two charges (speeding and failing to provide driver's details). If you want to simply have this matter reverted to speeding you should respond to the SJPN by pleading Not Guilty to both charges. In the "Reasons for pleading Not Guilty" box state that you are willing to plead guilty to the speeding charge providing, and only providing, the "Fail to Provide Driver's Details" (FtP) charge is dropped. This is a tried and tested method to deal with your problem, well known to all court users (lawyers, Magistrates and their Legal Advisors) and is almost always successful.

Before the pandemic it was necessary to attend court to do this "deal" because it needs the agreement of the police prosecutor. During the pandemic courts made every effort to have as few people as possible attend and they began doing this deal under the "Single Justice" procedure without the defendant's attendance. Some courts have carried on with this procedure whilst others have reverted to a personal attendance being necessary. So you may need to attend court to make your offer. If that is the outcome let me know and I will advise you how to deal with that.

[islandgirl]

There was a similar case detailed on here a few weeks ago. As I said then, it is extremely unlikely that we magistrates would believe you could not remember. If you are willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence now the best course of action would have been to give your details weeks ago. 35 in a 30 would probably be just a speed awareness course if you have no other points. We have heard all kinds of excuses for not sending in the S172 - most of which we do not believe...

[muchenje]

Speeding ticket Norfolk & Suffolk manned equipment 35 in a 30. I received this ticket but havn't a clue whether it was me or my wife driving. The photographic evidence does not show the driver so I called te Norfolk & Suffolk ticket office. My call was logged. They sent more footage which again does not show the driver clearly and suggested we write in, which we did within the 28 days. We explained we checked diaries and cannot sign a plea if we don't know who was driving... No reply was received but the 28 days lapsed and now informed of a court referral notification for 1. Speedings & 2. Section 172 offence, which potentially carries a further 6 points. I am tempted to plea guilty to the speeding offence but not guilty to 'failure to give information of driver' because I made reasonable attempts to to clarify... any recommendations?

Thank you this is very helpful and will do as suggested. one question. On the online form not guilty plea form there are two 'statement' boxes, one for the speeding and one for the FtP, do I copy the same to both. ie this statement
Upon receiving the original Notice of Intended Prosecution relating to the alleged speeding offence, I was genuinely unsure who had been driving the vehicle at the time and exercised reasonable diligence to ascertain who was driving, checking diaries, looking at our phones.
We communicated with the Central Ticket office for clarification. The phone call was logged. They sent additional images none of which helped identify the driver. Following their guidance we again checked our diaries and if still unsure we were advised to write in which we duly did, copies emails and letter enclosed. It was not our intention to be willfully negligent.

I respectfully ask the court to take these circumstances into consideration. If acceptable I am willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence providing, and only providing, ‘Failiure to provide drivers details’ is dropped

[HandyAndy]

No no no. Do no say anything like that under any circumstances!

That gives the impression that you are still unsure who was driving and your offer will probably be rejected.

Simply say what I suggested - that you are willing to plead guilty to speeding provided the FtP charge is dropped. If your case is dealt with under the Single Justice procedure you will not be asked anything at all (because you won't be there). If you have to attend court the prosecutor may ask you for more of the circumstances (though it's unlikely). If you are asked, simply say that you made some more enquiries and established that you were the driver.

To expand a little, you have already committed the FtP offence. You are very unlikely to successfully defend that charge. However, you have a little leverage. The police are not really interested in prosecuting you for that offence provided they are content that you are not trying to gain an unfair advantage (for example, if your wife was on nine points and she really was the driver). They also don't want to go to the bother of running a trial if you plead not guilty to it.

The speeding charge cannot succeed unless you plead guilty because the police have no evidence to show who was driving (that comes from the response to the request for driver's details). If you offer to plead guilty to speeding, the police get their conviction for the underlying offence, they do not have to bother with the other charge and you do not get punished for an offence that will certainly see far more severe consequences over a longer term than a minor speeding matter.

This "deal" is carried out in Magistrates' courts up and down the land every day. It is well known to everybody involved and is almost always successful. I know of only one case where it failed. On that occasion the defendant was less than civil to the prosecutor, telling him what he could and could not do. So the prosecutor showed him what he could do and he finished up with nine points.

You need to accept the speeding charge as it stands and agree unequivocally that you were the driver. Simply state what I suggested (against each charge if necessary) and I have every confidence that you will succeed. As I said, it may require a visit to court and I will advise you on that if you are asked to attend.

[muchenje]

Thank you this is very helpful and will do as suggested. one question. On the online form not guilty plea form there are two 'statement' boxes, one for the speeding and one for the FtP, do I copy the same to both. ie this statement
Upon receiving the original Notice of Intended Prosecution relating to the alleged speeding offence, I was genuinely unsure who had been driving the vehicle at the time and exercised reasonable diligence to ascertain who was driving, checking diaries, looking at our phones.
We communicated with the Central Ticket office for clarification. The phone call was logged. They sent additional images none of which helped identify the driver. Following their guidance we again checked our diaries and if still unsure we were advised to write in which we duly did, copies emails and letter enclosed. It was not our intention to be willfully negligent.

I respectfully ask the court to take these circumstances into consideration. If acceptable I am willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence providing, and only providing, ‘Failiure to provide drivers details’ is dropped

ok understood, so I enter a 'Not guilty' plea on both charges and state ' I respectfully propose to plead guilty to the speeding offence provided the Failiure to Provide charge is dropped'; and enter it in both boxes?

[muchenje]

ok understood, so I enter a 'Not guilty' plea on both charges and state ' I respectfully propose to plead guilty to the speeding offence provided the Failiure to Provide charge is dropped'; and enter it in both boxes?

It asks 'Why do you believe you are not guilty' so what would I put for this in the speeding charge?

[HandyAndy]

Simply write what I suggested ("I am willing to plead guilty to speeding...etc.).

I know it doesn't answer the question, but the person dealing with your response will know why you are saying it.. As I said, this "deal" is well known to all court users.

Do not be alarmed if you are simply sent a court date following your response. That is standard procedure for those courts that have reverted to he pre-Covid process.

[muchenje]

It asks 'Why do you believe you are not guilty' so what would I put for this in the speeding charge?

Thank you handyandy

[HandyAndy]

You're welcome.

I should really have said hat the person dealing with your response should know why you are saying it. There have been increasing numbers of reports where inexperienced court staff have not reacted properly and have tried to get more information from the defendant instead of simply processing the response to put before the court.

It should not make any difference to the outcome but let me know if a straightforward response is not received and I will help you address it. The clerical staff dealing with these matters should have been made aware that there is, in fact, no obligation on the defendant to state anything at all about their not guilty plea at this stage. But your offer to plead guilty will help if the court is one of those that deals with these cases under the Single Justice procedure. It will avoid your case being put before the normal court and it will save you a trip..