liability order help

[Milo]

Re: liability order help

I would add the unrealistic and unreasonable demands the Rundles have been making into your complaint. Paragraph 24 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 states:

"Debtors must not be pressed to make unrealistic offers and should be asked to consider carefully any offer they voluntarily make and where possible refer to free debt advice."

Regulation 7 of the Council Tax (Deductions From Income Support) Regulations 1993 states:

"Where the adjudication officer has determined that there is sufficient entitlement to income support the Secretary of State may deduct a sum equal to 5 per cent. of the personal allowance for a single claimant aged not less than 25 and pay that sum to the authority towards satisfaction of any outstanding sum which is or forms part of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made or the summary warrant or the decree was granted. "

Firstly, the National Standards are merely guidance.

In this particular case, Regulation 7 is not applicable.

[Milo]

Re: liability order help

I don't suppose that you will get a response from the landlord before 14 days, but do give it a try.

Of course you can request copies of letters from the council. Call them on Monday and ask for them.

Can you not come up with any evidence at all that you moved out in April 2015?

I cannot see that you have any grounds to object to the first liability order (for the period up to April 1st 2015. What you need to be attacking is the 2nd Liability Order for over £1,000. Ask the council what period this if from (it will be from 1st April 2015 but we don't know the end date). You have an opportunity here to bring the debt down by almost £1,000.

If you can achieve challenging this second debt, the smaller one of approx £700 will be easier to maintain (and especially so if you are able to pay possibly £100 per month).

I can appreciate that you are not in a good position financially, but being brutally honest, almost all of the 3.7 million people who have a Liability Order issued against them every year are in a similar position.

Interestingly, I was reading a report last night where one enforcement company reported that when household visits are made, that in approx 25% of all cases, payment is made to the bailiff by a third party (friend or family member etc).

[Indebt]

Re: liability order help

I would add the unrealistic and unreasonable demands the Rundles have been making into your complaint. Paragraph 24 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 states:
"Debtors must not be pressed to make unrealistic offers and should be asked to consider carefully any offer they voluntarily make and where possible refer to free debt advice."

Regulation 7 of the Council Tax (Deductions From Income Support) Regulations 1993 states:

"Where the adjudication officer has determined that there is sufficient entitlement to income support the Secretary of State may deduct a sum equal to 5 per cent. of the personal allowance for a single claimant aged not less than 25 and pay that sum to the authority towards satisfaction of any outstanding sum which is or forms part of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made or the summary warrant or the decree was granted. "

Contacting your local councillor wouldn't be a bad idea regarding your problems proving that you left on April 15. If you notified the council by contacting a different department (possibly to apply for housing), the chances are that this department won't have notified the revenues department. If they have a record of your contacting them, then this will be good evidence that you had left your previous property and that you had indeed notified the council.

I would also add that as you had previously notified the council of a change of address and because of Rundles breaches of both legislation and National Standards, you ask that the council take this debt back and implement an attachment of benefits order, as prescribed in guidance offered by both the Department for Communities and Local Government and also the CAB/Local Government Association.

[WorriedParent]

Re: liability order help

They never even gave me chance to give an amount, just said they can't accept less than £300+ per month which is ridiculous. I could probably pay £100 per month at a stretch, but I don't exactly receive a lot of money.

Is there a way I can contact the council to request copies of letters they had sent to me if I can't find all the necessary ones? I have some but not all.
I have an address for the landlord which I've found from google, along with two other company names that they operate under (one of which dissolved) but no other contact details. Should I include this or should I write to them myself asking for a copy of the tenancy agreement/proof of vacating the property? I'm very unlikely to get a reply though, as they wouldn't even answer the council.

[Milo]

Re: liability order help

Thank you for that. I'll definitely look into it right away.

I know, I was replying to a comment Indebt had made about additional fees could be added because of a visit this week, which hadn't happened. Thanks again.

The accounts are on hold for 14 days and frankly, I would not be considering complaining to the council at this present time. You need to put the bailiff fees to the back of your mind at this moment and instead, look at ways in which to provide evidence as to the date that you moved.

You have mentioned that you moved out on April 15th. If so, you would only be liable for 15 days council tax for that particular council tax year. This is by far the most important task that you should be concentrating on.

You have also mentioned that you made a payment proposal (which was rejected). How much did you offer?

[WorriedParent]

Re: liability order help

Thank you for that. I'll definitely look into it right away.

I know, I was replying to a comment Indebt had made about additional fees could be added because of a visit this week, which hadn't happened. Thanks again.

[ploddertom]

Re: liability order help

There is a suggestion in Post 6 that the account has been put on hold for 14 days which may explain why you have not had a "visitor" and in any case they are well known as not coming when they say they will as this ramps up the pressure.

I would also suggest you contact your local Councillor(s) who can take this up for you. There is nothing to stop you contacting them this weekend so they can act first thing Monday - best initial contact is by phone. Details of who to contact can be had @ https://www.writetothem.com/

[WorriedParent]

Re: liability order help

I did notify the council of change of address. That's why I thought they would've sent any outstanding bills to my new address, not old, as they knew I no longer lived there.

Nobody has visited me this week. I've received no contact from them other than these letters, no knocks on the door or calls, and I have been in most of the time, including when I received the letters. Or does posting a letter count as a visit?

Who do I write to at the council? Thank you for your help.

[Indebt]

Re: liability order help

If you leave an address, it is your responsibility to notify the council of a change of address. Councils will not search for you. By law, they are permitted to keep on sending paperwork to your last address.

The purpose of visiting the CAB is for help in filling out an income and expenditure list. You will then use this to show how much you can afford to pay each week. You need to be able to show the council that you were paying tax elsewhere, which may be a problem regarding the period that you were at your friends. This is exactly the reason why councils require notice in front-It cannot be proven after the event. You can try it but it will be at the councils discretion as to whether they accept it or not.

Either way, it looks like you will have two separate LO's. This will mean an additional £150 in bailiff fees, on top of the costs of obtaining two LO's. In addition, you will have been charged a further £235 for the visit that took place this week. I cannot do anything about the £150 but I can help get the £235 removed. You have to write to the council though-Rundles will just claim that they are entitled to send it to the last known address, they've done so before.

I cannot help in getting the debt returned to the council. If Milo can help then that is fine. In the alternative, you need the chance to get this sorted out without the threat of bailiff visits. This is best done by instigating the formal complaint. It is all very well writing pretty little letters but they invariably only end up in the paper shredder. A formal complaint enters an official procedure and is taken far more seriously. I speak from personal experience as well as helping many other debtors. If you have not received a notice of enforcement yet are being threatened with the removal of your goods, then you are perfectly entitled to issue a complaint. We cannot have councils and their agents going round breaching legislation to make it easier to recover debts.

[WorriedParent]

Re: liability order help

Thank you all for your replies.

My tenancy agreement was for 6 months, from October 15th 2014 - April 15th 2015, when I left. I did not use a removal agency, my friend helped as I only had a few boxes. I had sold whatever I could to get by at this point. My friend can confirm the date, although according to the council tax lady that I spoke to this isn't enough evidence. I also made JSA claim from friends address (I was told I couldn't claim anything else, although once I turned up for the interviews she agreed I was in no fit state to work and could claim ESA) I also was put on the waiting list for council housing, and stated all problems and difficulties that had happened in the recent months and classed as urgent. So I do have this evidence of moving, the landlord however is incredibly difficult to get hold of, no numbers, email address etc and did not respond to council tax letters, so I was informed the other day that I would be liable if they cannot get into contact with her. Is this true?

My partners name wasn't on the council tax or tenancy agreement.

Both the council and Rundles have said the account is on two week hold from yesterday.

I don't own a car or anything of any value as I just don't have the means to.

I received two letters from Rundles, same day, one of £794.98 and one of £1,074.71, which I now know is because of two different tax years. This is a 'Magistrates Liability Order' and they claim to have made numerous visits and letters, although not at my current address they are writing to. It says on the back that if I do not pay or agree a payment by Sep 22 an enforcement agent will visit and may seize belonging.

I plan to visit CAB but I'm not sure what I would be taking with me as I have no evidence other than the claims made and moving into a council property in July that I vacated the property. I would be more than happy paying what I owe, via payment plan, but don't understand why I would have to pay what the landlord owes just because they refused to contact them. And why couldn't they contact me last year to clear the whole mess up, as they definitely had my address as I had council tax, rent etc.

I think I answered everything, thank you all again!

[Indebt]

Re: liability order help

It doesn't matter how long you have been doing something, if you can't get your head around the basics to begin with. Only yesterday, you were shown to be wrong yet again, in your constant attempts to knock my advice.

You don't even understand the basics of joint liability-How can you claim that you don't need to be told how to do your "job"?

Anyway-The advice is on this thread, it is up to the OP which route she wishes to take.

[Milo]

Re: liability order help

As I keep on telling you, a polite word and a formal complaint will go a lot further than just a polite word.

With the greatest of respect, I do not need you telling me how to do my job.

The advice that I give on here and on other forums (where I have been posting for a very long time) is based upon many years of experience assisting tens of thousands of debtors.

A well drafted letter (or event complaint) has always worked for me and I have no reason whatsoever to alter my advise.

PS: As difficult as it may be for you, please try to stop taking this thread off topic.

[Indebt]

Re: liability order help

Oh please.

It was only the other day that you were promoting "well drafted letters".

The account is on hold for 14 days. After that enforcement starts again, hence your questions about owning a car.

Enforcement should never have taken place if the NOE was sent to a previous address. Are you seriously suggesting that this most crucial issue should be ignored or brushed under the carpet?

If you want to push the vulnerability aspect then carry on but even your own post admitted that councils tend not to take debts back. With that in mind, surely we need to ensure that the OP is not charged the £235 enforcement fee. We will not achieve this by asking "pretty please, with a cherry on top".

As I keep on telling you, a polite word and a formal complaint will go a lot further than just a polite word.

[Milo]

Re: liability order help

If the OP has never received a notice then the first thing she should do is instigate a complaint to the CEO of the council immediately (yes she can send it to the recovery department if she knows who to send it to) The letter should be headed "Formal Complaint Stage 1" The letter should state that the OP has been visited by a bailiff. However, no prior notice of enforcement has been issued, pursuant to Regulation 8 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013. The OP should ask that notice is now sent to her correct address in order for her to be afforded the compliance period in which to address the matter. The OP should further ask that the £235 enforcement fee is removed from her account. Finally, the OP should ask that enforcement is suspended whilst this complaint is being investigated.

Send a copy of the letter to Rundles. Then make plans on how you are going to address the matter.

This debtor is suffering from anxiety and I am rather surprised to hear suggestions that she should be writing to the Chief Executive of the council. The account is already on hold and I would suspect that in time, the account will be returned back to the council. Bailiff fees will at that stage be removed.

What she should be doing, is to get a detailed letter sent to Rundles (copied to the council). The letter itself will most likely hasten Rundles decision to return the account back to the council.

From many years of experience, it is usually the case, that well written letters that omit endless references to legislation prove beneficial.

[Indebt]

Re: liability order help

Before a bailiff may visit a debtor, the debtor has to be given 7 clear days notice (usually a minimum of 14), in writing, before tat visit takes place. This is to enable the debtor a small window of opportunity to either settle the debt or negotiate an affordable repayment plan.

If the OP has not received notice at her present address then she should not have been visited. Whereas council tax correspondence may be sent to the debtors last known address, a notice of enforcement must be addressed to the debtor at the place, or one of the places, where the debtor usually lives or carries on a trade or business.

If the OP has never received a notice then the first thing she should do is instigate a complaint to the CEO of the council immediately (yes she can send it to the recovery department if she knows who to send it to) The letter should be headed "Formal Complaint Stage 1" The letter should state that the OP has been visited by a bailiff. However, no prior notice of enforcement has been issued, pursuant to Regulation 8 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013. The OP should ask that notice is now sent to her correct address in order for her to be afforded the compliance period in which to address the matter. The OP should further ask that the £235 enforcement fee is removed from her account. Finally, the OP should ask that enforcement is suspended whilst this complaint is being investigated.

Send a copy of the letter to Rundles. Then make plans on how you are going to address the matter.