Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

[wales01man]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

My way of thinking was to agree a payment plan with the council before bailiffs are involved that then make the problem bigger and the chance of a bailiff clamping a car and all the other nasty things they do happen. Then look into the legalities of everything . it wont go away until the OP can challenge the bill .
The property should SAR the council to obtain copies of all the correspondence relating to the property extension and council tax this may show something important.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

IanM, I like that idea a lot. I will get a friend to send this off.

Wales01man- yes, that was my plan, until they said they would not set up a payment plan until it had gone to the bailiffs. I did apply for all that info under freedom of Information act. It shows that the property was given planning permission in 1990, the annexe has never been given a separate address and that the letting agency provided no information to the council about a new tenant.

I thought I'd just make sure today that the check had gone through and cleared the account (receipt arrived today in my SAE) using the on-line log in.
Low and behold, they still haven't reduced the original bill by 25% and it's showing I still owe £2700!!! <facepalm>
Email already sent with the question, why is this showing this amount?
Oh, and the new paper bill still hasn't turned up. Now 12 days since they said it was sent.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

And it gets better!
Apparently, according Liberata (who are the councils collectors of bills, and I see they've come up before on this forum as being useless), the new sum is due because the benefits officer has now decided that there is no proof of single occupancy at my address going back to 2002, it can only be proved from Nov 2013 when I first claimed.
So a new bill was sent out on the 25th Feb. I still haven't received the first amended bill!

The woman at Liberata was a chocolate fire guard. "computer says no...."

So why was I told back on the 1st Feb, on the 14th Feb and on the 19th Feb, by their office, that the bill was £7330.

Brilliant....

[ploddertom]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

As I have said previously ask them about their write off policy, and it has to be the policy in force at the time of the debt and not what it is presently.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I'm waiting to hear back from 2 managers (Liberata and the Council) to see why this has been changed from the original decision.
In the mean time I have just seen the Council help desk and told that the bill is now on there and that I will have to write a letter of appeal against this to get it changed.

It would seem that as there was no CT bill from 2002 (and every year after) stating the number of occupants, they have no proof that I was single occupant and therefore can remove the benefit.
Of course, they can't prove that there was more than 1 occupant, but that really don't matter to them does it.

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

And it gets better!
Apparently, according Liberata (who are the councils collectors of bills, and I see they've come up before on this forum as being useless), the new sum is due because the benefits officer has now decided that there is no proof of single occupancy at my address going back to 2002, it can only be proved from Nov 2013 when I first claimed.
So a new bill was sent out on the 25th Feb. I still haven't received the first amended bill!

The woman at Liberata was a chocolate fire guard. "computer says no...."

So why was I told back on the 1st Feb, on the 14th Feb and on the 19th Feb, by their office, that the bill was £7330.

Brilliant....

The bill of £7330 showing on the computer will be the amount they thought they could get you to pay without you questioning the amount they say you owed.

Because you have questioned it they are back tracking to cover up their complete abuse of the legal process in trying to make you liable for a debt that didn't exist.

You are now only liable for the debt from Nov 2013 and once you get the new bill claim back the overpayment and make a complaint to the LGO.

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I'm waiting to hear back from 2 managers (Liberata and the Council) to see why this has been changed from the original decision.
In the mean time I have just seen the Council help desk and told that the bill is now on there and that I will have to write a letter of appeal against this to get it changed.

It would seem that as there was no CT bill from 2002 (and every year after) stating the number of occupants, they have no proof that I was single occupant and therefore can remove the benefit.
Of course, they can't prove that there was more than 1 occupant, but that really don't matter to them does it.

It doesn't matter whether they could prove more than one occupant, they would have to prove that you were the occupant liable for the debt from 2002 and that the debt actually existed.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

It doesn't matter whether they could prove more than one occupant, they would have to prove that you were the occupant liable for the debt from 2002 and that the debt actually existed.

So...
The council have made only me responsible for the debt going back to 2002 and no-one else, therefore I must have been the only person living here
OR/AND
As you only have proof that I have been here since Nov 2013, how can you make me liable for a debt going back to 2002, as you have no proof that I was here before.

Although I guess they do, just not enough to prove I was here alone.

This is getting very complicated!

I did manage to speak to someone within the council today. They were actually very informative. Although obviously coming from the councils point of view.
He can not speak for another department i.e. the benefits dept, but he 'suggested' that as it is getting near to the end of the tax year they probably employed some temp staff that either didn't know the system properly and so applied the back dated 25% when they shouldn't have, or employees from another council that didn't know the NSC way of doing things. When the 'real benefits agents' saw the bill the promptly changed it.
He could only apologise for this and agreed that they should have been in contact about this, rather than just sending out a new bill (or just happen to see it on my on-line account).
He did say that the council tax dept are a law unto themselves, and basically said that after government cut backs, CT depts are very vigilant (I mentioned almost unlawful, but he 'didn't hear' that) as CT is the largest income outside of government income.

I was right though. As there was no proof of single occupancy i.e. a signed and returned council tax form for these years, they have no proof that it is single occupancy. Even though they have the tenancy agreement with only my name on and I am the only person here on the electoral role, these in themselves are not conclusive. I could have had someone living here but not on those forms.
I have to now write an email of appeal stating my case, and provide as much evidence as I can eg signed letter from landlord. If anyone has any ideas of other forms of proof, I'd appreciate it. Also, they won't accept scans of documents as attachments to emails, I have to get a council officer to scan them.

My advice to anyone needing council advice is to call the council help desk and ask to speak to someone about. At least you get to talk to someone who knows the system, rather than an out soursed company who know jack s*'t

[ploddertom]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Have you spoken to your local Councillor(s) - don't forget to use this to your advantage as there are local elections due in May.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Update on all this....
I sent an email appeal against the removal of the benifit and about the back dated original bill today to Liberata and CC'd my local councillor and the local MP. I heard back from the MP's office straight away asking to be informed if 'Liberata does not respond to your request to sort out this apparent misunderstanding'. So, some good news there. Nothing from Liberata so far.

I could not find anyway of proving definitely that have always been the sole occupant, so I got the landlord to write a letter and also filled in a Single Occupants Claim back dated to March 2002, and by signing this it states I have always been the only occupier for this period.

Just a note, if you are going to appeal against a CT decision, make sure your email is subject headed with the word 'APPEAL'. By doing that, they have to send it to the appeals dept and it can't be ignored. Especially if the councillor and MP are copied in!

I will up date when I get any news.

[jopate]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

New to this so please forgive brevity. Please see http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publ...html#TopOfPage.

Appendix 2.3 re Disaggregation. Council cannot backdate list alteration or therefore tax. They must repay you.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

New to this so please forgive brevity. Please see http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/Publ...html#TopOfPage.

Appendix 2.3 re Disaggregation. Council cannot backdate list alteration or therefore tax. They must repay you.

Many thanks jopate, that's very interesting indeed, I've not seen that page before.

However, and wording ins't my forte here, where it says on the right 'Pre 1/4/07 date of coming into existence of annex' mean in my case, as the annexe was built in 1990, that it can be back dated?
Does 'coming into existence' mean when it was built, or when it was valued and existed because it was banded?

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Well, I've had a reply back from the appeal email.
Very briefly, they agree to back date to Single Occupancy reduction, but still state that the original bill should be back dated to 03/2002.

So that's one thing cleared up.
I don't know if copying in the Councillor and MP helped a quick response, but it couldn't have hurt.

Here's the reply....

Thank you for your email dated 7 March 2014.

My records show your single occupancy discount start date was changed from 15 March 2002 to 4 November 2013 as we had no proof to confirm that you had been the sole occupier since 15 March 2002.

A bill for the additional council tax due was issued on 4 March 2014.

Following the letter that you provided from your Landlord confirming that you have always been the sole adult occupier I confirm that I have changed the start date of the discount back to 15 March 2002 and your account balance is now £0.07.

The bill issued on 26 February 2014 was for £7330.47 and a payment of £7330.40 has been received.

The District Valuer assesses the Council Tax Valuation band for each property and notifies this office accordingly.

If you wish to appeal against the band of your property and/or the effective date of the banding please contact the District Valuer as below.

Address: Bristol Valuation Office, 4^th Floor, CityPoint, Temple Gate, Bristol, BS1 6PL
Tel: 03000 501501

In the meantime council tax will remain due and payable as per the latest bill.

Although the annexe was not banded at the time that you moved in it was your responsibility to notify us of your occupation of the property and had the council been aware of your occupation a banding request would have been sent to the valuation office at that time.

With regards to the terms of your tenancy a tenancy agreement is a matter between the tenant and their landlord and has no bearing on the responsibility for who should pay council tax. In all cases, the resident is liable for council tax unless the property is classed as multiple occupation, or a care home / hostel etc.

In cases where we are advised that you are charged council tax as part of your rent, I would suggest that you speak to your Landlord and advise that either the Landlord pays (you will remain liable but bill is forwarded to landlord as c/o address) or that the rent is revised to remove the council tax element.

This email will be recorded on account reference ......(my removal)

I trust this clarifies the situation; however if you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact this office.

All replies must be sent to n-somersetctax@liberata.com and not directly to myself unless instructed to do so.

[jopate]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

My reading of this is that the pre/post date of 1/4/07 refers to the date they alter the ratings list. In your case this is will be post 1/4/07 and so the effective date will be DOS ie now.. If they had altered the list Pre 1/4/07 then the effective date would be Date of coming into existence of annex. ( I think it is their typo using a lower case d in date).

If you were in Wales they could backdate it in either case.

I would refer the VOA info to the council requiring them to comply with it and repay you in full. It will be interesting to then see what they have to say. They will no doubt say that it is not relevant but it is I think.

By the way, do you have contents or other insurances, these usually have a free legal helpline for advice.

[jopate]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Further to my last post -

'coming into existence' would I think mean when it became ( assessable as ) a separate dwelling.

Reference the council's response in your last post, they are saying that you had a responsibility to notify them of your occupation. As the CAB says, this is nonsense, there is no such legal duty on you whatsoever. Ask the council for the Statutory Provision that places that duty upon you.

The fact is actually that the councils listing officer has the Statutory Duty to compile and maintain the rating list. The responsibility is theirs alone.

Furthermore the council has it seems has always had sufficient knowledge to require them to make a 'banding request'. Firstly, the original planning application and permission in 1990 should have prompted a banding. These documents will be on microfiche so make an appointment with the planning department to view these. Secondly, the landlord advised them in 1997 that his mother in law was moving in. This should also have prompted the council. Ask your landlord to make a Statutory Declaration regarding his dealings with the council on this.

Just for clarification, there is no such thing as being exempt from a CT banding. If a annex (or anything else) could be deemed a separate dwelling, in law it must be banded and subject to CT. It is once it is banded that the exemptions to the CT itself come in. There is a list of situations where the taxpayer is exempted from paying the tax due. I have a detached annex which is in Band A, but since the planning permission prevents it from being let separately I get a Statutory Class T exemtion and pay nothing. I still get a bill but it is for £0 !

The VOA information should suffice, but also provide the evidence ( the planning application documents and the Landlord's Statutory Declaration) that they had sufficient knowledge to prompt the banding request from the outset to defeat their arguement on that point and hopefully they will back down and refund you. If they do not, take them to court.