Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

[MissFM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I don't see how you can be - I believe it is your landlord's responsibility.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

MissFM - Thanks for the link to that site before, typical that it happens to be down right now! You mentioned minimum rent in your previous post. I don't suppose there's a place where I can find that out? All my Google searches end with charges on bands/benift payments etc

[MissFM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Not sure Buddster (and it's maximum, not minimum, lol). Was relying on that resource!:tinysmile_hmm_t2:

I may be confusing the "maximum rent" thing with other fiscal liabilities. Will do some research

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Thanks. It only sparked my interest as my rent is under the £500 level.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I wonder if there is anyone who can comment/confirm this from the CAB. It seems to fit my circumstances as the annexe was not identified originally and has only just been banded. It would seem from this that the council can only charge when the new banding comes into effect. Any links to actual law would most appreciated.

'If the listing officer decides that part of the property constitutes a separate dwelling, for example, where a self-contained 'granny annex' exists but was not identified when the original list was compiled, the separate banding and council tax bill only take effect from the date the list is actually changed'

[MissFM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I think the confusion has probably arisen because the LL's elderly mother living there would have given automatic exemption:

Properties exempt from council tax

Some property is exempt from council tax altogether. It may be exempt for only a short period, for example, six months, or indefinitely.
Properties which may be exempt include:

• condemned property
• property which has been legally re-possessed by a mortgage lender
• property unoccupied because the person who lived there now lives elsewhere because they need to be cared for, for example, in hospital, in a care home or with relatives
• property which is unoccupied because the person who lived there has gone to care for someone else
• any property that only students or Foreign Language Assistants on the official British Council programme live in. This may be a hall of residence, or a house. If the property is occupied by both students and non-students the property is not exempt but any students in the house are disregarded
• a holiday caravan or boat if it's on a property where council tax is paid
• a property where all the people who live in it are aged under 18
• property which is occupied only by people with severe mental impairment
• a self-contained ‘granny flat’ where the person who lives in it is a dependent relative of the owner of the main property.

[/QUOTE]

(from http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/englan...om_council_tax)

I have also found out that the inadvertent red herring I threw in re rent thresholds was to do with income tax exemptions on lodgers. (ie you can charge up to £4,250pa rent taxfree) It may be that your LL was misled into thinking this applied in your case.

It's worth trawling your local authority's website for their particular approach..otherwise, the best I've been able to find so far is the link above, which you have clearly viewed.

Your quote looks like cause for optimism -

'If the listing officer decides that part of the property constitutes a separate dwelling, for example, where a self-contained 'granny annex' exists but was not identified when the original list was compiled, the separate banding and council tax bill only take effect from the date the list is actually changed'

have been trying to find, without success so far, some corroboration.

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I wonder if there is anyone who can comment/confirm this from the CAB. It seems to fit my circumstances as the annexe was not identified originally and has only just been banded. It would seem from this that the council can only charge when the new banding comes into effect. Any links to actual law would most appreciated.

'If the listing officer decides that part of the property constitutes a separate dwelling, for example, where a self-contained 'granny annex' exists but was not identified when the original list was compiled, the separate banding and council tax bill only take effect from the date the list is actually changed'

Found these links but still doesn't fully answer your question about back dating the bill.

http://www.voa.gov.uk/Corporate/CouncilTax/index.html

http://www.voa.gov.uk/Corporate/Coun...eIsbanded.html

http://www.voa.gov.uk/Corporate/Coun...anOneUnit.html


What I did find was that 'valuation bands are based on property values on 1 April 1991' but I would have thought that you would only be liable for the Council Tax from the date the valuation officer registers the property on the banding list not from the date when they should have registered it from.

Your landlord should argue his case that they should have registered it at the time of completion and he cannot be expected to pay for their mistake in not registering it as it was their responsibility to do it and not his.

[IanM]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

And just in case they stand their ground you can appeal

https://www.gov.uk/council-tax-appeals/appeal-a-bill

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Thanks both

MissFM > Yes, that does seem to be the case. The LL wasn't told the reason why, just that it was. So as far as he was concerned, it has always been included in the CT of the main house and therefore told me there wasn't any CT. However, it seems that the council overlooked the fact it wasn't banded in the first place. As the rep from the council told me, even if it was exempt, it should have been banded in the first place and on record, and then a note saying that the reason why it was exempt added to that record.

IanM > Thanks for the links. You're right, they don't quite say what I'm looking for. I've a few statements from the CAB that I can't corroborate with actual law, but surely they don't give out incorrect info.
As my name is on the bill, would I not have to appeal against the decision on the grounds of it not being banded before, or is that for the landlord to do. Even though he has said he would pay, am I not responsible for the debt as the tenant? I want to make sure it's approached in the correct way to avoid a LA or anything more.

It would seem the be the best line of defence. I have asked the council under the FofIA for any details they have on the address. Maybe that will show up something.
I'll also call the Valuation Office to see if they can give me more details on back dating. I'd also like to find out form the letting agency what if anything they did at the time.

Thanks again. Please post if you find anything more.

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

An update to all this.
It would seem from what I have read, it the Council Tax is not included in the Assured Tenancy Agreement then it is up to the LL to pay the CT (which obviously can be reclaimed in the total rent). However, Councils do not care about tenancy agreements and will go in order of hierarchy of liability which is :-
1. a resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property
2. a resident tenant
3. a resident who lives in the property and who is a licensee. This means that they are not a tenant, but have permission to stay there
4. any resident living in the property, for example, a squatter
5. an owner of the property where no one is resident

as a tenant, do I come under #1? (not sure of the difference between leasehold/freehold. Isn't that the LL?)

The Valuation Officer claim that it wasn't a 'mistake' originally in not banding the annexe.


As an aside, when I visited a Council Tax help workshop (the council rep was actually a benefits officer not a CT officer so couldn't really help too much) I was told a new reduced bill was on it's way. After 10 days of it not turning up, I rang the council to check where it was and was told it had been sent 4 days earlier and should be with me either that day or the next.
4 days later, it still hadn't turned up so I called the council again to check. This time I was told it all bills are sent out 2nd class post and take 7 - 10 working days. When I mentioned the earlier advise given, that person could only apologise for the mis-information.
Council's....honestly, I give up!

[CleverClogs]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Councils do not care about tenancy agreements and will go in order of hierarchy of liability which is :-
1. a resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property
2. a resident tenant
3. a resident who lives in the property and who is a licensee. This means that they are not a tenant, but have permission to stay there
4. any resident living in the property, for example, a squatter
5. an owner of the property where no one is resident

as a tenant, do I come under #1?

No, as you do not own the property.

The Valuation Officer claim that it wasn't a 'mistake' originally in not banding the annexe.

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

As an aside, when I visited a Council Tax help workshop (the council rep was actually a benefits officer not a CT officer so couldn't really help too much) I was told a new reduced bill was on it's way. After 10 days of it not turning up, I rang the council to check where it was and was told it had been sent 4 days earlier and should be with me either that day or the next.
4 days later, it still hadn't turned up so I called the council again to check. This time I was told it all bills are sent out 2nd class post and take 7 - 10 working days. When I mentioned the earlier advise given, that person could only apologise for the mis-information.
Council's....honestly, I give up!

So they're persistently inept.

Can you ask them which firm of bailiffs they use? The answer to that may give a clue as to how seriously (or if at all) the council is infested by Crapita.

I take it that your wing of the main house has its own kitchen, bathroom and khazi, and that you do not need to share any of the facilities in the main house?

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

I take it that your wing of the main house has its own kitchen, bathroom and khazi, and that you do not need to share any of the facilities in the main house?

Correct.
I agree going forward the property is liable for CT, it's the proving I'm not liable for the back dated CT bill

[wales01man]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

If you were living in the property at the time the backdated bill was unpaid and think you are not liable who is?
Time to try for an arrangement with council to pay trying at the same time to get a reduction Before the Bailiffs fees start accumalating

[Buddster]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

If you were living in the property at the time the backdated bill was unpaid and think you are not liable who is?

The Landlord, as he informed me when asked that there is no council tax (and it not being in the AST contract) as he believed it to be included with the main house ~(and therefore part of my rent), which was because the property wasn't banded separately originally, nor banded at the time when it changed usage, either through negligence of himself or the council.

Yes, time to call the council to arrange payments. I'm already wording an appeal email.

[wales01man]

Re: Back dated bill of £10,000 for unassessed rented property

Council negligent your are aving a laugh never LOL