Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

I see your point, but there is a bit of a difference. We're talking about local authorities, courts etc., in a position of responsibility, hold power and paid for by the taxpayer. You would therefore hope they wouldn't be turning this power and influence into a racket which extorts money from those who feed them – usually the less well off.

[three rivers of corruption]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

@ outlawlgo
Think of it like if a policeman gave evidence in the manner ; " then the scumbag tried to get away but fortunately i grabbed the lowlife"
The language used can serve to undermine the credibility of the evidence, best keep it staid.

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

....In my case, the district judge made some incredible decisions that if they were allowed to stand would mean the LA does not need to provide the court with any supporting evidence for any allegation it makes, the LA's 'word' outweighed bona fida opposing evidence in my case e.g. I have audio recordings that prove beyond doubt that the LA solicitor and magistrates' justices clerk forged the court register with the LA and their acting barrister being cc'd on emails that capture the crime. The judge did not flinch......

What planet are they on?

I'm finding this bias, towards believing any B.S councils expel, with the Information Commissioner (jurisdiction of the MoJ).

Paragraph 29 of this "Decision Notice" from the ICO demonstrates how at ease the Commissioner is with the council lying (the subject of another FOI request, here).

Freedom of Information requests were submitted over a year ago, requesting information relating to the number of cases where certain bailiff fees were imposed over a five year period. If released, the results would almost certainly provide evidence of spurious charging to residents subjected to these fees in more than just a few isolated incidents.

It seems clear that North East Lincolnshire council and the Information Commissioner are jointly obstructing the release of potential evidence, therefore abetting Rossendale's crime. They have between them creatively put forward one explanation after another for withholding the information. But to add insult to injury it's the taxpayer who funds these parasites.

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

Hi Outlawlgo,

I totally agree with your views and follow the same principles. I'm just beginning to understand the relationships between members high up in the LA and the courts. I don't think anyone can deny that there's a strong established relationship that - may/does - bear an unfair influence.

I see that the Council enforcement officers are in court twice a week and are on first name terms with the justices clerks if not the Judges themselves. I've even come across instances where councillors sit on the bench as JP's (not sure about my area though).

I have only come across one case in my area where a judge (now retired) slammed the LA and his decision was overturned on appeal.

In my case, the district judge made some incredible decisions that if they were allowed to stand would mean the LA does not need to provide the court with any supporting evidence for any allegation it makes, the LA's 'word' outweighed bona fida opposing evidence in my case e.g. I have audio recordings that prove beyond doubt that the LA solicitor and magistrates' justices clerk forged the court register with the LA and their acting barrister being cc'd on emails that capture the crime. The judge did not flinch.

The lesson I learned from this is that the relationship between the LA and Courts does often influence or interfere with the administration of justice and has done for many years.

As you also found, reporting a crime (even one that can bear a 10 year prison sentence) to the police, LGO, courts, ministry of justice, MP, or councillor has absolutely no effect.

In fact you run the risk of being labelled a vexatious litigant if you pursued a complaint through all of these recommended channels. This has led to my belief that it is important when dealing with these points to bear in mind that any letter or witness statement you write should lay signals to any appeal judge that may read it later and going by past experience (and case law) you WILL need a high court appeal (or higher!) to get true justice in your case.

One option you should consider is taking your evidence to the press, I've been told that the Courts behave themselves whenever a reporter is in the courtroom...

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

A54,

I completely understand and agree with what you're saying, but it just shows the people in these positions haven't the first clue about what their role entails. If they can disregard a case because of something as trivial (and unrelated to the evidence) as an individual's contempt for the organisation causing the grievance, we might as well not bother.

It is clearly a sign of corruption if a judge is permitted to allow crimes outlined in the evidence to continue because he doesn't agree with the personal opinions of the person making the allegations. If the judge considers such attitude to be contemptuous, this should be treated as an unrelated issue, as to throw out a case on this basis would amount to the judicial system aiding and abetting the crime for which it has evidence in its possession.

An individual sickened by the lies and corruption of let's say his local authority for example, should not have this go against the facts of the case if he expresses this. The person bringing the case to the court's attention should be considered just the messenger presenting the evidence which should be weighed up without irrelevancies getting in the way. If crime has been alleged, the ultimate role of the judge is to decide if the evidence is sufficiently conclusive to satisfy him a crime has occurred.

That's just my opinion but I doubt those in authority would share the same views.

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

Outlawglo, I learned that when dealing with these crooks you must remain civil and courteous at all times, while there's nothing wrong with talking the truth...

There are certain triggers that the real decision makers higher up the chain look for, e.g. the moment they see someone insulting the LA e.g. by calling them crooks, they immediately disregard the complaint even if you have infallible evidence. Its just not worth giving them any excuse, you've made valid points that need determining, don't give them anything else to focus on.

While researching I've seen this happen with a few cases in the high court and adjusted my approach accordingly.

The same applies when dealing with the LGO (who act as nothing but LA's damage limitation team).

I am not criticising your approach in any way which I feel is honest and direct - just sharing my experience in the hope it can be of help with this important test case.

I'm also involved in a test case, if everyone just keeps chipping away we might have a chance of stopping all LA's from deliberately victimising their most vulnerable citizens instead of helping them.

If you get a favourable decision in the high court regarding the LA's costs, imagine all the victims that will be able to reclaim any excess costs as a result, imagine 10 years worth of victims claiming back costs that were unlawfully charged.

Now imagine how a high court judge would feel knowing that if he rules in your favour, mayhem will shortly follow in magistrate and county courts all over the UK. There should be no hesitation in a judge making a just decision based on evidence and facts but the after effects of such a decision must bear some weight in the back of their mind.

Hope you take all this in the way its intended.

Best

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

There is one case that may hit the news and media channel in the very near future, a tragic case where an award winning inventor was literally hounded to death by the LA who made him bankrupt AFTER he paid his council tax arrears, his council made him bankrupt for £1350 alleged 'costs', these rose to £70,000 when they evicted him from his home that he owned outright. The facts of this case are shocking and disturbing, if you haven't already seen it: http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/07...eter-williams/

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

The response from the Council today was no surprise. I anticipated they'd consider themselves covered by the law and correctly obtained the liability order.

That however was not the point; it was the fact they could not substantiate their claims that the costs incurred were reasonable. It would be futile dealing with the council any more, unless of course it decided to instruct its bailiff contractor Rossendales – at which point it would not only be the council involved but the police as well.

8th February 2013

Dear Mr ......

Council Tax Liability Order

Thank you for your ‘e’ mail of 6th February 2012 [2013].

I am not prepared to apply to the Magistrates Court to quash the liability order obtained on 2nd November 2012. The liability order was correctly obtained for the outstanding balance due at that time.

No decision has been taken at the present time regarding further action to enforce the debt.


Yours sincerely

Local Taxation & Benefits Shared Service Manager

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

It's enlightening how people at the top have a completely different view of reality to the rest of us....

Apparently on Question Time last night, Former Lord Chief Justice Lord Falconer said about the Justice system in reference to Chris Huhne's likely prison sentence that for the public to have confidence in the system, courts have to administer justice fairly.

In answer a questions from the audience he stated, of course Chris Huhne isn't a danger to society but the courts have to treat perverting the court seriously. There’s got to be a clear message sent and Chris Huhne is at the wrong end of that clear message.

Does this only apply for cases in the public eye then? They're obviously in a different class and treated differently to the "conveyor belt" type cases the rest of us get dragged through.

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

I came across this last week, so who's in charge? the Magistrates Court or the LA's?

So what are your chances of getting a fair hearing in a Magistrates' Court?

The last paragraph at item 5 speaks volumes...

5. Procedures prior to the hearing

The Court and its staff should not give the impression that the Council is in charge of the process.

The Chartered Institute of Public Finance & Accountancy, in its "Guide to the Council Tax" tells us this:

Human Rights Act 1998

Local authorities must be careful not to infringe an individual's human rights. Potential areas for problems are:

• notice of hearing;

• being careful not to appear to stop the taxpayer appearing before the court, if they want only to make a payment arrangement;

• not having available a translator for people whose first language is not English; and

• not separating the roles of court taking officer and the person who gives evidence of process.

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

That form looks more designed for criminal cases.
The magistarates and liability orders operate at the lowest level of the court system, setasides can be granted as informally as they are granted . This high court business smells like the court people are trying to steer you into a brick wall to me.

Even though its a civil matter, I think the crim laws still apply.

I think (hope!) you got more chance of getting a fair hearing in the high court than in the magistrates.

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

I came across this last week, so who's in charge? the Magistrates Court or the LA's?

So what are your chances of getting a fair hearing in a Magistrates' Court?

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

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[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

If someone can tell me how to attach a pdf, I'll post up an interesting document labelled:

"JUSTICES' CLERKS' SOCIETYProcedure in Liability Order Applications".

Its an interesting document that explained to some extent the 'comradeship' between the LA & Justice's Clerks I keep coming across...

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

Oulawlgo, ever thought of running for MP?

You're doing a brilliant job, thank you.