Are Excel trying it on?

[andy2965]

Hi all,

I'll start with a brief run through of my story...
Around 2 years ago a representative of Excel Civil Enforcement knocks on the door with a Liability Order for £300 of unpaid council tax, my partner agrees a payment arrangement and the bailiff carries out a walking possession which my partner signs. We make regular payments and assume the debt is paid...
A couple of months ago we get a letter from Excel stating there is still £30 outstanding, i call Conwy Council and pay the £30 which settles our debt...
Today a couple of heavies from Excel roll up in a big van saying we owe £120 (their fees) and if we dont pay a locksmith will be around and they will remove goods( they also clamped our car) which will substantially increase the debt. I would also like to add that we now live at a different address from where the liability order was issued and the walking possession carried out.

Now my questions...
1. Can the bailliff enforce a walking possession at a different address?
2. Can the bailliff enforce a liability order just for their fees-even though the fees are not included in the amount on the liability order?
3. If i have settled my debt directly with the council, do the bailliffs have any right to pusue me as surely they have no client?

Sorry it didnt turn out as brief as i had intended

Many thanks in advance for any helpul replies :tinysmile_grin_t:

[labman]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Now my questions...
1. Can the bailliff enforce a walking possession at a different address? This is a point of much discussion, and the answer will avary on whom you speak to. The LO carries over to the new property, but even the experts disagree on whether or not a WPO carries over.
2. Can the bailliff enforce a liability order just for their fees-even though the fees are not included in the amount on the liability order? The Bailiffs fees should be taken from any monies paid before the remainder is passed to the council to repay the debt. Their fees should therefore already have been paid, but it may leave a debt still outstanding to the council.
3. If i have settled my debt directly with the council, do the bailliffs have any right to pusue me as surely they have no client? The best way to confirm this is to contact the council directly and ask them if there is anything still outstanding on the LO. If the answer is no, you should not have to pay a penny.

Sorry it didnt turn out as brief as i had intended

Many thanks in advance for any helpul replies :tinysmile_grin_t:

Hope this helps!

[andy2965]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Thanks for the reply Labman, i asked the council when i paid the £30 if the account was now settled in full and the reply was yes, this just leaves the bailliff fees of £120 which i have scraped together and now reluctantly paid. As far as i was aware if you settle an amount on a liability order then the bailliff would have to open a seperate case in court for the pursuit of their ridiculous fees, but with them calling on a saturday morning i couldnt reach anyone in authority to confirm this.

[andy2965]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

I must add aswell that i contacted Excel a couple of months ago and asked for a breakdown of the amount they were seeking and they confirmed that £30 was council tax and the remaining £120 was their fees, so i am 100% sure that my account with the council is settled. I was also under the understanding that under contract law a contract between two parties (ie council and bailliffs) shall not be binding on a third (me)- i did not agree to these extortionate fees so why should i be bound to pay them? I have had instances in the past where a bailliff has returned my account to the magistrates court and the first thing the court does is wipe off the bailliff fees- i presume this is because the court cannot enforce those fees?

[charitynjw]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Would this be a suitable case for a s46 complaint?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/46/made

As it is directed at the LA, they might get their finger out!

[labman]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

You need a breakdown of their fees which you can get by sending an SAR as per the following link:

Bailiff - SAR - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

I do not understand how once the LO was settled there could still be £120 of bailiffs' fees outstanding, given they're taken out before money is paid to the council.

Amy is the real expert in this area, hopefully she may pick up on it and give you advice.

[andy2965]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Thanks for all the useful info so far
With regards to a breakdown of the bailliff fees when i originally asked excel for a breakdown of the total amount the woman told me the £120 was for letters sent to me (i received 1 letter!) and a visit to my property(nobody ever called) which is puzzling as the bailliff who turned up yesterday told me that the £120 was a 'van' fee. I will try to complain about the tactics of these liars, but having paid the fees i guess i'll have to put this one down to experience. My partner is now well aware of rule 1 when dealing with bailliffs: NEVER SIGN ANYTHING AND NEVER LET THE B******S IN!!!

[labman]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Don't put it down to experience. Go after the bailffs and the council under their vicarious liability for the unfair charges you have paid. It may be a battle, but you'd get them back eventually. It must be worth it for that sum of money.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

As the WPA was agreed - and presumably settled - over six months ago, that agreement and the warrant must surely have expired.

I would therefore be inclined to regard the recent antics of those buggers to be blackmail which, should anyone need to be reminded, is an offence contrary to section 21 of the Theft Act 1968 - link and to the common law.

[teaboy2]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

If they are threatening to seize property, then not only would such threats be blackmail as pointed out above, but it would also be an attempt to obtain property by deception, which is also a criminal offence under s16(2)(a) of the Theft Act 1968 (now replaced by the Theft Act 1978).

So thats both blackmail and attempting to obtain property by deception that you can throw back at them.

[Amy]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Since you have now paid the fees the bailiff was requesting, this will become a very hard slog if you are to get your money back. So it really comes down to how much you want this.

Post #5 here Rossendales Bailiff - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum tells you what you need to know, but in the meantime, you need to send a formal SAR as labman has suggested.

One small point here though, is that there is no provision contained within Schedule 5 that allows them to charge for sending any letters.

As for paying the LO and assuming bailiffs fees are included and therefore everything is paid in full, this is a common misnomer and you will need to read around the forum as there is a lot of information on this.

[charitynjw]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Don't forget the Form 4 complaint!

http://criminal-bailiffs.angelfire.com/complaint.htm

Making an official complaint about a certificated bailiff

Section 8 of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988 provides for a person to file a complaint at court against a certificated bailiff and challenge his fitness to continue work as a bailiff.
Complete a Form 4 complaint and return it to the bailiff’s certificating court. Don’t be hasty; make sure you have ducks in a row before shooting. Keep everything factual & short. Call 0207 210 0516 with the name of the bailiff to find the court name and address.

Grounds can include:

The bailiff is untrustworthy
Collecting a debt that is larger than the debt originally claimed by the creditor

The bailiff defrauded you
He over-charged you in fees committing an offence under Section 2(1)(b)(i) and Section 4(1)(c)(i) of the Fraud Act 2006
Charged a fee that is not prescribed in law – e.g. a credit or debit card fee or a van fee etc
Charged a fee contradicting Section 10 of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988
Charged you a walking possessions fee without you signing it
Tricked you to sign a walking possessions agreement pretending the document was something else – e.g. a receipt, or payment confirmation.
Getting you to sign a walking possession agreement before telling you what the fee will be
Charged you attending to remove fee on his 1st visit
Clamped your vehicle (or charging a fee thereto) or seized goods (or charging walking possession fee) without giving the debtor reasonable opportunity to pay
Seized goods valued disproportionately higher than the debt
Sold your goods at a disproportionately lower price than you would have otherwise attained at auction (e.g. on eBay)
He charged you fees for previous visits while you were out and says you have to prove those visits were not made
He charged you fees for visits or posting letters that contradict Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 e.g. by sending them to a different address.
He charged you fees for sending letters for collecting unpaid council tax (the law doesn’t provide for it)
He enforced or tried to enforce the same debt twice
He enforced or tried to enforce a null-debt (paid up debt), or debt comprising entirely of bailiffs fees.

The bailiff is dishonest or of unfit character
He was aggressive, rude, threatening or intimidating
Pretended to be an officer of the court
Pretended to be collecting a court fine
Impersonated a solicitor or police officer
You sustained an injury by the bailiff (Contact a solicitor and make a separate claim under the Personal Injury Protocol)
Lied about the extent of his authority
Damaged your goods, car or property (Reclaim these from the authority that instructed the bailiff via the small claims track)

The bailiff committed extortion or blackmail
He said you will pay a higher sum of money unless to pay him a lower sum of money according to a deadline

The bailiff levied incorrectly
Seized goods that are not yours, e.g. belonging to a room mate, finance company, landlord, friend, relative, employee, client or neighbour
Goods you require for domestic basic needs, e.g. fridge, cooker, clothes, bed, chair, medical equipment
Non-movable goods e.g. a TV or painting bolted to a wall, or item needing a tool to remove (not vehicles requiring a tow truck)
Intellectual property or item covered under The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 or a computer containing the aforementioned
Tools of your trade, including a van, taxi or minicab
Goods or motor vehicles subject to a hire purchase agreement

The bailiff did not adhere to the law
Threatened to break into your home or get a locksmith without a valid levy
Called at night
Did not have a valid bailiff’s certificate on the date of visit (Check HMCS Register of bailiffs: 0207 210 0516)
The bailiff or his firm is not licensed for Cat A, Cat C or Cat E Consumer Credit committing an offence under S39 (1) and 21 (1) of CCA 1974 (Check OFT Public Register 020 7211 8608)
Entered your home by applying force against you, a door or window
You have a disability, ill, or heavily pregnant
Levied on a motor vehicle belonging to a finance company or other committing an offence under Section 12 of the Theft Act 1968
Refused to show proof of authority, name of certificating Court or proof of debt (Contact police on 999 and report a burglary in progress with suspect on the premises)
You (If you’re an Attorney – your donor) do not have mental capacity
You have filed an appeal or a statutory declaration against the debt
He seized a computer or laptop and didn’t allow you to recover data stored on it (you should immediately contact a solicitor specialising in Intellectual Property)

The following are not sufficient to make a complaint on their own, only to supplement a complaint.
He called at an hour when most people are normally asleep
Climbed through a window
Climbed over a gate or fence
Used ladders, climbed a fire escape, emergency exit or other external structure not normally used as an entrance
Refused to give a fee breakdown until after you have paid them
He set a deadline for you to pay that’s disproportionately short compared to your ability to pay

The Court will give the bailiff 14 days to answer your complaint.
If the bailiff fails to respond he will be summonsed, but you don’t need to attend.


The Court can:

1. Order the bailiff to pay you compensation and/or a refund of fees from his bailiff bond. This is a monetary deposit or a policy similar to liability insurance.
2. Revoke the bailiff's certificate
3. Dismiss the complaint

Don’t bother complaining to trade associations and quasi-regulators such a NALEO ACEA CSA ESA and BPA they are private companies and have no legal authority. Their codes of practice are voluntary and non-binding
If you are claiming financial losses, expenses or fraudulent fees by a bailiff who acted unreasonably or unlawfully, always file the claim against the authority that instructed the bailiff, NEVER the bailiff or his firm. If you have already executed chargeback you may be refunded twice ;-)

[Amy]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Yes, a Form 4 complaint is valid, but should not be considered until all other routes have been exhausted.

[andy2965]

Re: Are Excel trying it on?

Thank you to everyone who posted the above information i will be pursuing these bullies armed with all the useful information i have received and i'll keep you all posted on my progress.