Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or more?

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

The standard requirements are here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

Once again, as with all legislation, it is for interpretation: the duty with respect to safety (Reg 4) is to "take such measures as are reasonably required" and the reasonable requirement is imposed by the council. (s67 Housing Act 2005)

To fail to comply with the requirement is an offence attracting a maximum fine of £5,000.

Thanks for the link - 4.6 states:;

6) The duty imposed by paragraph (3) does not apply where the HMO has four or fewer occupiers.

My property is rented to 4 on a joint AST so based on that, it seems that the council is incorrect?!

[stevemLS]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Sorry, no, that is not the correct interpretation.

Paragraph (3) relates to fire escape signs, it is that alone which is disapplied for <=4 occupants.

Nice try though :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Sorry, no, that is not the correct interpretation.

Paragraph (3) relates to fire escape signs, it is that alone which is disapplied for <=4 occupants.

Nice try though :tinysmile_twink_t2:

Ah yes see that now. Looking through the rest of the doc all of it seems very much geared up to the renting of indivdual rooms on a per-room basis (such as DSS or to students). eg section 7 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/7/made

I have lived in a rented private house before, rented out my own flat previously (3 beds) and been in numerous other rented properties when visiting friends which have three to four bedrooms and none of these have ever had any of the pieces being asked for, nor has it ever come up before.

Are there any differences in the interpretation of what consitutes a separate household? Surely if all of the fire regs with emergency lighting etc was required for standard residential rentals, all properties would need it and it would be well known thing, especially with the estate agents who deal with 3 - 4 bed properties all the time. None of the estate agents I have spoken to (one is London's biggest) have ever come across this so it still seems extremely odd.

[stevemLS]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

As far as I can see (I am no housing lawyer) the tenancy arrangements are immaterial, the definition is two or more people live in non-self contained flats within a house and share essential facilities such as a kitchen or bathroom and are not part of the same household.

s254 of the Housing Act 2005 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/254 which is a bit convoluted but hopefully have summarised the key criteria.

I'm really not trying to make the council;s argument for them, simply trying to find and interpret the law for you.

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

As far as I can see (I am no housing lawyer) the tenancy arrangements are immaterial, the definition is two or more people live in non-self contained flats within a house and share essential facilities such as a kitchen or bathroom and are not part of the same household.

s254 of the Housing Act 2005 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/254 which is a bit convoluted but hopefully have summarised the key criteria.

I'm really not trying to make the council;s argument for them, simply trying to find and interpret the law for you.

thanks for your help on this - much appreciated. One more question if I may. In section 254. 2 it gives the definitions of hmo (below). In point A, what does it mean by one or more unit of accomadation? Its a standard house so there are not units in it (none of the doors have locks on)?

A building or a part of a building meets the standard test if—

(a)

it consists of one or more units of living accommodation not consisting of a self-contained flat or flats;

(b)

the living accommodation is occupied by persons who do not form a single household (see section 258);

(c)

the living accommodation is occupied by those persons as their only or main residence or they are to be treated as so occupying it (see section 259);

(d)

their occupation of the living accommodation constitutes the only use of that accommodation;

(e)

rents are payable or other consideration is to be provided in respect of at least one of those persons' occupation of the living accommodation; and

(f)

two or more of the households who occupy the living accommodation share one or more basic amenities or the living accommodation is lacking in one or more basic amenities.

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

also do you know what point f means? thanks

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

[QUOTE=seduraed;551742]I'm in cambridge and they interpret the regulations such that if the sharers each a have different tenancy agreement then a higher standard of fire regulations apply . If they all have a common bond eg same college, friends before taking lease . Then a lower standard applies . I feel for you the doors come in at about £40 from Wikes, plus closers and fitting. You may be able to get away with a fire door to the kitchen a fire blanket and extinguishers . Do you allow coooking in rooms . Do you have a communal space in the house ? These are all factors . Make sure you have thumb turn locks on all the external doors and that the bedroom doors can be opened from the inside without the use of a key .[/QUOTE

Hi thanks for this. There is one joint assured shorthold tenancy in place - so they are all under the same contract. There are no locks on any internal door and they are all friends. There is no cooking in rooms (normal house). Its interesting that your council approach it differently. I still wonder my council have it listed as separate rooms and not a joint house

[wales01man]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Interpretation of rules is interesting but not always correct this needs to be put in writing to the Council for them to reply quoting what rules they are applying until then they could be knocking on the door with all sorts of legalnotices.

Several LB members read the rules in a different way its not unknown for Councils to do what the think is right not what is Legal Worth a letter or Email

[Crazy council]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

[MENTION=67946]marbles[/MENTION]

Your getting mixed up. Firstly. Its a hmo. Deffinstly. so insure it that way. each council have there own individual rules for complience. But the deffinition is fixed. withere they share the kitchen or have cooking in rooms makes a difference to the fire rules and complience. Not the deffinition or clasification..... the basic rules that all hmos have to comply to is fire regs. But its possibly not as expencive as y think to convert it yourself.

The problem can be the council. and how they list the recomendations.

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Interpretation of rules is interesting but not always correct this needs to be put in writing to the Council for them to reply quoting what rules they are applying until then they could be knocking on the door with all sorts of legalnotices.

Several LB members read the rules in a different way its not unknown for Councils to do what the think is right not what is Legal Worth a letter or Email

Thanks - yes will write a letter to them. All seems very odd. The gov.uk website shows the regs apply for 5 or more so id like to see that the local council are basing their requirements on.

8. Houses in Multiple Occupation

Your home is a large HMO if all of the following apply:

• it’s at least 3 storeys high
• at least 5 tenants live there, forming more than 1 household
• you share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities with other tenants

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

@marbles

Your getting mixed up. Firstly. Its a hmo. Deffinstly. so insure it that way. each council have there own individual rules for complience. But the deffinition is fixed. withere they share the kitchen or have cooking in rooms makes a difference to the fire rules and complience. Not the deffinition or clasification..... the basic rules that all hmos have to comply to is fire regs. But its possibly not as expencive as y think to convert it yourself.

The problem can be the council. and how they list the recomendations.

Hi thanks - yup makes sense.. The piece I am trying to pin down is where / how the regs for a 'large hmo' (5 or more) apply to my property. If they did apply in the way the council are saying it would affect every 3 and 4 bed rented property in the borough which is not the case. Three different estate agents I checked with said they they have rented 100's of similar properties and never seen that level of regs implemented, so Im not following what the difference is with this one. I'll write to them again asking for further clarification. thanks for your help