Section 21 notice and Landlord

[woodymanuk]

Re: Section 21 notice and Landlord

Thanks for getting back to me PlanB,

I may have typed it wrong, the last section 21 that we received said to ignore the 23^rd august date as it was wrong and we have until 23^rd jolly to leave.

So am I right in thinking this is wrong, so an incorrectly submitted section 21 notice?

And also you cant pre date a section 21 notice what as he is serving it on the 22^nd May but his letter is dated 28^th May?

Once our first year was up and ended we didn’t agree to another year with that landlord and just agreed to take it month by month (this was verbal over the phone and not in writing L )

The reason we now owe £1950 is that it includes the £825 rent for this month what takes us up to 24^th September, so should he really add this to what we owe as with out this we owe £1125 what the deposit would cover?

There was an inventory carried out by an independent company (we have only ever met the landlord once and that was 2 months ago), we have their full report what is signed by both, I made a point in getting everything marked down from the missing wood trim on the floor to a broken bit of the blind, we have taken stuff down but made a point in keeping everything in the garage wrapped up so once we move out we can put it all back to how it was originally.

To be honest our landlord was all fine with us paying £400 a week to wipe out our arrears and not proceed with the section 21, I informed him we had a bill come in that we have to pay so would be missing one week so he then demanded £800 the next week to what I informed him that we was unable to make this amount but able to carry on with £400 a week. He then informed me he has lost his job and they are having money problems as his wife is due to give birth in September, I received an email from him but think It was really typed by her as didn’t sound like him now demanding the full £1900 we owed suggesting we get a loan or credit car or borrow the money and if this is not in there account by the end of the week they are taking us to court, I then sent a nice professional reply (trust me I had to hold back) saying we are unable to do this but are willing to carry on paying £400 a week as agreed however if you feel your only option is to take us to court there’s nothing else I can say or do.

I then get a reply saying no carry on paying £400 a week.

And now all this, what do you think I should reply to them as we want to move out and it would more than likely be before the court date but feel that a bad reference from them would stop this happening, I’m guessing they think the same that’s why they are demanding the outstanding money first as they feel they have the upper hand, how can we get around the reference issue?

[woodymanuk]

Re: Section 21 notice and Landlord

Update we have now received this

We spoke to the legal team today and wanted to clarify the points you raised:


You will be entitled to your bond back minus damages to our property.
We can claim up to £300 from your bond towards our legal fees.
You will be liable for all rental arrears which now totals at £1950. If you are still residing in our property after 24th September, this amount will be increased by another £825 to allow for October's rent.


I have spoken with my wife and we are willing to compromise. If your bond of £1142.30 was returned to us and you transferred a further £800 into our account, we would like to avoid the hearing and end this tenancy on amacable terms, once we receive this we will gladly be your referees.


We feel we have treated you with respect and empathy since your payment inconsistencies began. This has caused myself and my pregnant wife a great deal of stress and financial difficulty. We wish to end this tenancy as swiftly as possible and would welcome your evacuation ASAP, avoiding any further delays.


We ask that you be honest and open about your intentions.

[PlanB]

Re: Section 21 notice and Landlord

Oh dear I'm rubbish at maths :doh: Can you tell me exactly what YOU think you will owe in rent by the time you vacate on 20th September, never mind what your Landlord thinks you owe? I think you said it will be £1,950. Have I got that right?

Your Landlord has contacted you to say he will accept payment of £1,942.30 (made up of £1,142.30 from your deposit and a further payment of £800 from you).

So you are now both in agreement on the amount (give or take seven quid).

The only problem may be 'timing' since although you're happy for your Landlord to take the deposit towards the rent you may not have the cash-flow to pay the extra £800 before you leave.

His final line asks you to be "open and honest" and that seems a reasonable request to me. Why not tell him (in writing) that you agree to the overall figures, he can have the deposit, but you will need to pay the £800 in instalments (if that is the case). You will need to be specific about the dates of these payments.

I know he's been acting like a bully but that's not the point. You simply want a resolution so you can move on with your lives. He has a pregnant wife and says he's suffering cash-flow problems which is stressing her out. He claims that this is caused due to the lack of incoming rent. I can relate to that as a Landlord myself. It's easy for people to think all Landlords are rich capitalists who use rent to buy handbags and shoes, when the reality is he may need it to pay the mortgage on the property. If he can't pay that mortgage because he hasn't got the rent coming in, then he could be repossessed. Even his own home could be at risk of repossession if his overall income stalls.

Please don't think I'm supporting his aggressive approach because I'm not. I just want you to strip away the emotion involved and get a deal done which is fair to you. Paying what the tenancy agreement says you should pay is no more or less than what a court would order you to pay and you'd get a CCJ which would scupper any reference you need for the next 6 years once it's registered on your credit file. He's agreeing to accept what you are accepting you owe (unless my maths is horribly wrong!).

Why not tell him you're sorry you've caused him and his wife this stress because that has never been your intention. Tell him you've had your own unplanned misery which caused this situation. Remind him you've been a good tenant for two years until this blip happened. You need to get him onside so you get that reference.

He seems to want you to go as soon as possible. How do you feel about that? Is the next rental property available to you before 20th September? If so maybe you could tell him you would be willing to leave early if he will give you a glowing reference to help make that happen. Tell him that without a reference you may not be able to go anywhere and may just have to stay in the property until evicted by the court. He'll know the legal process could take three months. That should make him focus

[labman]

Re: Section 21 notice and Landlord

I would have thought if he wants you out that badly, he'll give you a reference anyway just to get rid of you. However, if he needs the £700 to pay his mortgage, then paying in installments may be a stumbling block. It might be worth trying to think of a way round that. I don't know what though.

[woodymanuk]

Re: Section 21 notice and Landlord

thanks for all your advice on this people its helped a lot

[woodymanuk]

Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

Section 21 Notice and Court date

Hi all it’s me again, need some more advice as all lost with this L

Got served with a section 21 notice and agreed to leave but after the date on the section 21, we kept the landlord updated regarding finding somewhere else to live.

The landlord informed us that his legal team has submitted papers to the court regarding the section 21 notice even after us agreeing to leave, as he wanted to follow the correct procedure.

We then received details from the court regarding the pending hearing on the 11^th October 2013.

We contacted the landlord and told him that we would be vacating the property on Monday 23^rd September 2013 (before the pending court hearing) and for them to arrange to meet us and get someone to preform an exit inspection.

We met on the 23^rd as agreed at the property and handed over the keys, we have an outstanding amount of £1950 owing so also discussed clearing the balance (the DPS are still holding £1142.30 as we still waiting for details of the exit inspection), we also provided details of our forwarding address so that they could always contact us.

The landlord then email to confirm that they are now able to withdraw the court case against us, we then replied to this and offered an arrangement to clear the outstanding balance to what we didn’t get a reply.

We then received an email from the landlord informing us that the court hearing will be going ahead and that they will be asking the judge to grant attachment of earnings / county court judgment, and that they will be entitled to reimbursement of the outstanding balance as well as there legal costs.

I don’t know what to do now or where we stand, any help welcome.

(If you need any background information regarding the serving of the section 21 notice please see my last posts.)

Thanks again in advance for all your help

[PlanB]

Re: Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

Eeeek. That's the day after tomorrow :scared:

Ok, go to the hearing and tell the DJ everything.

What does the application say? Does is say the claimant is seeking possession of the property under section 21 ? Or does it say the Claimant is seeking possession of the property (s.21) and also a money judgment for the arrears under section 8 ?

Did you file a Defence when you got the original court summons?

Obviously a court can't order possession of the property since your Landlord has already got possession (you've moved out and given him the keys) so he won't necessarily get his legal costs. Take that email with you in which says he'll withdraw proceedings too.

I might ask Admin to merge this thread with your other thread to keep it all in one place

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...307#post370307

[PlanB]

Re: Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

We met on the 23^rd as agreed at the property and handed over the keys, we have an outstanding amount of £1950 owing so also discussed clearing the balance (the DPS are still holding £1142.30 as we still waiting for details of the exit inspection), we also provided details of our forwarding address so that they could always contact us.

I've had a thought

Your Landlord is legally obliged to return your deposit no later than 10 days after the end of your tenancy. You met with the Landlord and handed over your keys on 23rd September which means he accepted a voluntary surrender of your tenancy (I've forgotten the date it was due to end). This means your deposit should have been returned in full, or a written explanation given as to why he won't return it, by 3rd October. This hasn't happened.

So first thing tomorrow raise a dispute with whomever is holding your deposit (there are three schemes). This may be enough to get that hearing adjourned on Friday. Or you may be able to get it adjourned on the grounds that you would like to file a counterclaim for your deposit.

I've not been able to look into this properly at such short notice, but I think what you need now is a curved ball to stop a CCJ.

I'll be back tomorrow.

[woodymanuk]

Re: Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

I will type a full reply later today.

I dont know is this helps as a curve ball regarding a CCJ

My partner and joint tenant is off work long time (this can be supported via her doctor if requested) and has been since 24th April 2012 as a result of a car crash , she is still employed but has not has any income snide October 2012, I am self employed and there is a very high probability that I would lose my job if I god a CCJ so in turn would then be unable to make any payments.

[PlanB]

Re: Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

My partner and joint tenant is off work long time (this can be supported via her doctor if requested) and has been since 24th April 2012 as a result of a car crash , she is still employed but has not has any income snide October 2012.

I expect the court would see this as an explanation but not an excuse for rent arrears A DJ can only judge the facts based on evidence although he can use discretion in some circumstances, however I fear this is not one of them. There is a tenancy agreement which is a legally binding contract which you have breached so the Landlord is owed his money. He's not obliged to accept payment by instalments. If you can't pay it all in one go then the DJ would consider an order to be paid by instalments which would be assessed on having sight of an Income & Expenditure Form. Sadly your lack of funds is no reason for the court to dismiss the Landlord's claim.

I'm not a lawyer but I can't see any Defence to this claim. If you successfully counterclaimed for the deposit there would still be a shortfall (of the rent arrears) owed to the Landlord so a CCJ for the balance may be unavoidable. Unless there's a clause in your AST which specifically says the deposit can only be used for dilapidations and cannot be used for rent arrears, the Landlord would be entitled to offset your deposit against your rent arrears.

[PlanB]

Re: Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

The landlord then email to confirm that they are now able to withdraw the court case against us, we then replied to this and offered an arrangement to clear the outstanding balance to what we didn’t get a reply.

We then received an email from the landlord informing us that the court hearing will be going ahead.

What does that email from your Landlord actually say word for word? If it clearly states that he will discontinue these proceedings then he or you should have sent a copy to the court and the proceedings would have been discontinued. If his willingness to discontinue had conditions attached (e.g. agreement to pay rent arrears by a defined instalment plan which you have started to pay) and this was also put in writing then that may help you avoid a CCJ. But if you made him an offer to pay which he didn't accept, and silence is non-acceptance, then I'm not so sure. Show it to the DJ and argue that an agreement has been reached, you've vacated the property, the Landlord has possession so no order is necessary. It's a long shot though, and your Landlord will argue that he's owed the money and has changed his mind about wanting to settle.

No one likes to go to court except lawyers. Is there still a chance that you can reach a settlement with your Landlord so that the hearing can be vacated? Reading back through the history there do seem to be trust issues between you and him which may be why he wants the certainty of a CCJ.

There is something called a Tomlin Order which can be drawn up between you both to reflect an agreement to pay as the settlement. This is not the same as a CCJ and it won't show on your credit file etc. Explain to your Landlord the negative impact a CCJ would have on your ability to earn (and pay the arrears) and see if you can arrange this. A Tomlin order can only be enforced by a county court if you default, but if you keep to the payments then you won't go near a court once a DJ has rubber stamped the Tomlin order.

I don't know what else to suggest other than requesting an adjournment while the TDS adjudicate on your dispute for the return of your deposit.

[PlanB]

Re: Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

Here's a bit of background on Tomlin Orders. I expect your Landlord will not have heard on this option so you may need to educate him too

http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/4045.article

[PlanB]

Re: Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

I will type a full reply later today .

In case we don't get to touch base later let me explain one more thing. Whatever happens in court tomorrow the Landlord won't be able to get an attachment of earnings order on the spot despite what he's told you. A court will only grant that if you subsequently default on a CCJ which you haven't even got yet. And even then you can ask the court to make a suspended attachment of earnings order which only kicks in if you default on the agreed repayments. Your Landlord would have to make a fresh application to the court to achieve an AOE order. This explains how it works:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/...your_wages.htm


All that's left for me to say is call the DJ *Sir* or *Madam* and I wish you the very best of luck ray: Please post up how you get on because even if it doesn't go your way there are other suggestions we can make to help you with the next phase.

[woodymanuk]

Re: Section 21 notice and Landlord

sorry its been a long day.

this is the email that we received from the landlord regarding the withdraw of the court hearing.

"We hope you have settled into your new flat and managed to get all those boxes unpacked!

As Meleza discussed with you on Monday, at the exit inspection, we are now able to withdraw the 11 October Court case against you.


We now need to address the £1950 rental arrears. We are hoping that you will continue weekly payments beginning tomorrow as you discussed with Meleza on Monday , to prevent us from small claims court proceedings. Please call or email / text to discuss how we should proceed."

we then replied thinking him and also offered to pay him the full deposit once relesed along with £50 a week and sometimes more depending on how my week went.

i didnt have any reply to this and then 5 days later i received this email.

"Paul,

We have consulted our legal team at legal4landlords with regards to our current situation of the outstanding £1950 rental arrears.

The court hearing will be going ahead.

We will asking the judge to grant attachment of earnings/ county court judgement. We will be entitled to reimbursement of the rental arrears as well as our legal costs."

sorry its late, i have been trying to get all my details and notes ready for court.

[woodymanuk]

Re: Section 21 Notice and Court date (but have already left property!)

one thing i forgot to say the landlord will not be attending court it will be a representateive from legal4landlords.

and the form they submitted to the court was a N5 claim form for possession of property it also has in brackets (the claimant is also making a claim for money)